What I'd like to do with crafting, part 3: Marketplaces
One of the fundamental problems with the idea of making lots of items available via crafting is that at the moment, it's pretty difficult to find specific items on vendors. Many people will probably hear that, nod their heads and say "ah, yes, what we need is an auction house."
Well, maybe.
I agree that would be effective, but it would pretty much put vendors out of business, and I think vendors are one of the things that give UO it's unique feel. I would rather not kick them to the curb unless there were no other way . . . and I believe we could address that problem in party by making vendors easier to use.
Imagine, if you will, a shopping gump that lists all the items on vendors on the screen. Imagine you could buy these items (or, perhaps, make an offer on them for the vendor's controller to accept or reject later) with one mouse click within this interface. Now imagine you could filter that list based on whatever criteria you wanted. That would certainly make shopping for unique crafted items a lot easier, wouldn't it?
That's kind of cool, and, frankly, something I want to do eventually regardless of where this whole crafting discussion goes. But there's another idea I really like (and yes, in case it's not blatantly obvious, pretty much everything in this series of articles has been suggested by players in one form or another). That idea is player-created BODs.
Maybe "BODs" isn't quite the right term here, but the principal is the same -- a contract for a specific set of items. In this case, I'm envisioning that you could post an order to some kind of public bulletin board and crafters could compete to be the first one to deliver the goods, sort of like a bounty system. This would certainly be an easier way to get a specific item you were looking for, and all it would cost is a bundle of cash.
But player BODs wouldn't be just for crafters, oh no! Many people picked up on the point that rare crafting material "fragments" mentioned in my last article would be loot drops and not easily attainable by pure crafters. That was deliberate. The intent is to supply a commodity to PvM players that will not be directly usable by them, but will have value to crafters, thereby making the trade relationship reciprocal instead of one-way. But that could irritate a lot of crafters who don't want to have to find suppliers of these kinds of materials. Once again, player BODs to the rescue! Crafters could create BODs for "100 Phoenix Feathers" or "3,000 Adamantine Ingots", which some PvMers could then compete to fill, in exactly the same way.
posted by MrTact @ 9:59 PM
60 comments
60 Comments:
I like the idea overall. I think the few people who will continue complaining, as you expand this system, will be the people who refuse or simply just do not wish to interact with other people at all, and wish to continue playing this game solo and totally self-sufficient.
Do you have intentions of adding SOME of these high end resources to Mining, Lumberjacking, Fishing and Bod Rewards?
By the by.. the rate of discussion here has been impressive... the mention of item decay has made the whole thing the most contested topic on Uhall [for better or worse]... And this keeps it open to those who dont usually post on Uhall or even bother to read it.
Good job :)
I do like these ideas, tact, and once again you have done well to start this blog.
But I would like to second Noni and say that not all fragments should come from PvM. Most should, but not all.
Some should be BOD rewards, some should be fishing rewards, some should be random ore spawns, random shrub spawns accessible by lumberjacking, rare flower spawns in ilshenar accessible through use of the Alchemy skill, and my personal favourite - a reward for a successful beg! (Man, how cool would this make begging?)
I just did a quick count of item properties, and found 79 different things that could be added (Slayers, Magical Spells and Magical properties). Make 40-50 of them drop as monster loot, and then the rest through other playstyles. restricting them to only combat characters is just deny some players access to the fragment economy.
yes, i like the idea of assiting vendor usage... i'd hope we not see vendors totally surpassed by a central market/auction house like you get in Starwars galaxies etc - i recall them having to limit that system because we call complained that no-one came to our vendor shops cos everyone could purchase from the bazaar...
something i wouldnt mind seeing tho is rentable market plots/vendors spaces in towns... might be a way to repopulate certain towns... like for example Nujlem etc.
anyway...
I wonder if you've ever encountered the blueprint proposal i once wrote up for the ideas den
you can see it here:
http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=uoideas&Number=5756091&page=33&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=0&fpart=all&vc=1&what2=postlist&selv=&vwhich=&PHPSESSID=
one thing that has always annoyed me with things like vet rewards or the 7th anniversary gofts for example, was thatthey introduced an item without any crafting basis.
My proposal/idea shows a way to introduce such items in the future while keeping crafters & resource gatherers in the loop. This could have been done for the Tokuno Minor & major arties even... Or even Doom artifacts.
Ideally reading the link would be best - but in abbreviation;
let's imagine instead of jsut recieving "The Tapestry of Sosaria", you instead received a "Blueprint for The Tapestry of Sosaria" (or "Design for...")
You then need add raw ingredients to this blue print (such as 20 spools of cotton, 30 yards of cloth, 2 gold ingots, or whatever... to the blueprintlike you would add items to bods) then take this blueprint to a GM Tailor who then (via trade window) can apply his GM Tailoring skill to the blueprint and viola, you get your tapestry.
This could be a easily extensible system, with all sorts of Blueprints made available as loot drops, bod rewards, gifts and so on. And always keeps a crafter in the loop. You could even make "large" blueprints that are comprised of smaller blueprints which could be attainable via a variety of methods. (see for example the 'decorative cannon' example of a large blueprint in the ideas den post.
(i like to think the idea got a pretty good reception, 31 aye and 0 nay votes)
thanks
I really like these ideas.
The item decay to speed items through the system - Lessening the stagnation caused by insurance.
The fragment/ resource requirments to create enchanted items - Increase item availability while keeping cost of good items high.
Vendor enhancments - Long over due.
I feel though that there is another issue that these dont address. The one char crafter of everything that the majority of accounts have.
For this reason I suggest that certain enchantments be tied to certain skills as well as the resource requirment. There is a crafting proposal in the ideas den that I think with some small modifications would fit wonderfully with the ideas you have here.
yeah tact you really need to address the problem that cow has just raised:
namely, that everyone has a crafter - so why will people need to go to others in order to get goods or replacement items? i mean a small percentage will, but id say at least 75% of people have their own crafter.
So whats stopping me from logging in on my pally, monster bashing to get the fragments, dropping them into a chest at my place, switching chars and crafting what I need - all without speaking to another soul?
This is why I have constantly advocated specialisation tied to exterior (or supplementary) skills - so that what we can do is limited and thus we have to go to others in order to get some of the things we need.
How will this problem be addressed? Have you even begun to think about it?
On player BOD's:
I think you may run into trouble with forcing people to "rush to be the first ones to complete the order." I know i'd find it pretty aggravating to spend an hour making 50 kegs only to return to this bulletin board and find that someone else had already completed the order. But at the same time, you wouldn't want to allow players to "accept" and then be able to remove a player created BOD from the bulletin board if they havent already finished the items, since you could have a lot of potential for people just griefing each other there.
So... what to do? Perhaps make it so orders can be put "on reserve" for an hour or so, giving the peson at least enough of a headstart so that when they return with the completed items, theyll still have someone to sell their stuff to.
Another problem i see is the value of items as a whole. The current system makes it rather hard to find an item youre looking for, yes... but think of how that affects the price people will pay for these items. Lets say that, for example, i want to buy a helm of insight. I know that their price ranges anywhere from 5-8 mil. So, i start looking around the various vendors i know who sell high end items, and wander around a bit as well, and the only one i find is for 9m at "JOE'S HOUSE OF UBAR UBARS." Not wanting to pay that much (yet), i head down to the bank and try to find a live person who might sell me one. Well low and behold, Bob the Banksitter says he's got one for sale, only 8m! After having spent an hour wandering around and not being able to find one cheaper elsewhere, i give in and pay the 8m.
Now imagine that same scenario, but using what would seem to amount to a shard-wide trade board (or people making frivolous player BOD's merely to advertise/request items): I head down to the marketplace to check the trade board for a helm of insight. I scroll down to the artifacts section, and find 30 people with helm's for sale! And what's more, theyre all trying to undercut each other. That hard to find helm that was once 6m on a very good day is now running for 4.5m, because there are simply so many of them out on the market now.
Extend this to things like recalls - they only cost 28 or 30gp to make, but people often pay twice that just because its convenient. If they could throw down a request for 500 recalls at 31gp, eventually someone is going to fill it. Whether its a person scripting inscription or just some newb who wants the tiny profit, someone will do it. So on and so forth with kegs, potions, armor, etc.... If you suddenly open the market as you seem to be suggesting, i think there's just a whole host of potential problems that need to be thought through first.
So far, I'm liking everything except item decay.
I keep wanting to refer to the bazaar in SWG.
Trying to come up with some way of dropping items on town vendors or bulleting boards and having them linked to your vendor. So that if a customer sees something they want, they buy a rune to your vendor from the town vendor and whenthey buy the item it is removed from the bulleting board.
Lotsa work to be done on this idea though and I've got to get to work.
Maybe more later????
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
This is shaping up to an awsome idea - I hope this makes it into the game not too far down the line. Giving the pvm people the chance at getting the rare resources will really help trade overall. Of course you could have saved yourself a lot of insults if you'd have mentioned the increased chance of getting high end equipment to replace what wears out, afterall we love our pixel collections scince AoS came out. Think the vendor gump idea will work well, especially in places like Luna, and the idea of allowing player vendors to virtually auction good could be interesting - rather than letting the vendor owner come along later and decide to accept or reject offers would put a lot of people off though - maybe have a special auction vendor where the owner can put reserve prices on things. This vendor would only be active for say 1-2 hours, the owner sets a start time so people could run small auctions on a daily basis. The auction vendor fees would also be a gold sink and with limited weight the system should not affect player run auctions.
I think one of the things that need to be addressed withthe current BOD system is the fact that the more crafters you have, the more you get out of it.
We really need to address this problem. There needs to be a way to render people with 40 BOD runners to be ineffective. One simple way is to just remove the BOD system all together (which is not necessarily the best solution), but I think if the runics were removed from the BOD system (along with CBDs) and rather have the rewards handed out contain things such as house decorations you would see people dropping their BOD runners in a hurry.
I am just running out the door here, but I will put some more thought in to the BOD problem and the inordinate number of crafters/mules/BOD runners during the day.
-iron
Vendor enhancements:
Very good ideas here, and in the comments. The idea of being able to
make a filter is awesome.
To expand on that idea a little; it would be nice if I was able to set
my filter, and say 'vendor view' and every vendor on the screen (so
more than this command currently effects) would pop up that had items
matching my criteria.
Secondly, so we know what shop had the goods that we desired (for
return business, loyalty, etc.), highlight the vendor yellow (like
when we hover over them in war mode) so we can see them (our name in
grey when we buy the item might not be noticeable if everyone on
screen answers; and if we like the item, but the price is too high, we
need to know who to come back to).
I also REALLY liked the idea of vendor spaces rented out in towns
(*cough* gold sink). Maybe 2 or three towns (less used ones) could
have one or two NPC buildings converted in to marketplaces. Players
could rent up to a certain amount of vendor spots for a fee. I like
this a lot.
Monolith made excellent points on the player bod system (we really
need a new term for this.. lol). I would like to offer a suggestion.
I think there should be a few different ways of doing this, and with
Mr. Tact's ideas, I have some elaborations:
1. Zeus the legendary Mace Fighter wants a War axe with 35% DI, 15%
SSI, 20% mana leech, 50% fire, 50% poison damage (k, I don't want to
meet him in a dark alley..). Zeus buys a blank Item Order from the
bank (100 gp), and fills out the gump. This gump is built in to know
the limits of properties, so people don't make impossible requests.
Zeus also types in how much he is willing to pay for this item. Now
Zeus has two options:
a.. Zeus knows a legendary smith that can take care of this for him,
so he hands the Item Order to his Smith, and the smith, finding the
amount acceptable, makes the item for him. (filling the order would be
the same a BOD because that code is already written, and it is
convenient: double click order, click item. If it matches what was
requested, it is added to the Order, thus filling it). The filled
item order is returned to Zeus.
b.. I like Mr.Tact's ideas regarding bulletin boards, but I had some
concerns/ideas (discuss later). Zeus goes to his local bulletin board
(player crafted would be able to access the database too), and posts
his Item Order. Someone fills the order, and Zeus retrieves it from
- Show quoted text -
the bulletin board.
2. Bulletin Board System: I agree with the comments/concerns about
filling an order only to find out someone already did. This would be
very frustrating, and we would need to think of a way around that.
One idea would be to have the price set on the Item Order visible, and
a second value (max price) hidden. On the bulletin board, crafters
could put a bid out there to do the order:
-If they choose the low price (the Item Order's visible price), they
immediately win the order, and the Item Order is marked 'in work' on
the bulletin board, and would not accept any more bids.
-If the crafter wanted more to fill the order, they could punch in
their price as a bid. If that price was within the range (visible
price-max price), it would be posted next to the item order as 'lowest
bid'. Another crafter could come and either take the item order at
the visible low price, or bid less than the previous crafter.
The Item order, when posted on the bulletin board, would also have a
player-created time limit on it. This would dictate how long the item
was to be left on the board to accept bids. Once the time limit was
over (and no one chose the displayed low price), the Item Order would
go to the lowest bidder.
That still leaves some holes though.
1. what if the crafter never fills the order?
2. What if the player doesn't have the gold to pay for the item?
3. what if the player no longer wants the item?
Some ideas for those:
There should be a time limit to fill the order as well. If it is not
completed in that timeframe, the item order is returned to the
bulletin board as active, and the next lower bid would get the order.
But the crafter could have been almost done, and needed more time. In
that case, there is no real good solution. Sure, there could be a
system to request an extension, and this could show up on the board as
'extended' for an allotted about of time, but that seems clunky. The
item would have, on the board, the timeframe, so the crafter would
know they had x amount of time to fill the order. if they are not
sure they can fill it in that time, they should not bid. That is my
$0.02.
For payment, I believe this should be tied to the order, and when the
order is created, the low amount is deducted from the account (brings
up yet another issue, ill address that in a sec). If the item is to
be bid on (BB system), to post the Item Order, the player would have
to have the money to be able to pay the high price for the item as
well (but it is not deducted). When a bid is accepted, the difference
in funds would be deducted. This, however, does leave room for the
player to take out money, and not be able to afford it. How this
would be handled: at the time the acceptable bid is placed,
insufficient funds would cancel the order.
Limits on the difference between low and high price would have to be
set. Perhaps a cap at 20%. that way a player cannot put in a low
price of 1 gp, and a high price of 10k, only having to cough up 1 gp
to get it posted. In this scenario, they would put in a low price of
9k, and the high end could be no more than 10,800. That also gives
the crafters an idea of the range. In this system, posting the Item
order on the board would deduct the high price from the player's
account, returning the difference after the order has been returned
filled.
The player would be able to cancel the order on the board at any time
during the bidding phase. If the order is being filled, the player
cannot cancel the order.
This bidding idea could also be expanded to the vendors as Mr. Tact
suggested. The price for items on vendors could have a visible high
price, and a lowest acceptable price (again - a limit on the range
here). You could purchase the item for the displayed high price, or
make a bid. If you make a bid, it is left on the vendor for a
specified time, with the following options:
1. cancel bid
2. vendor owner can immediately accept bid
3. same player or someone else can purchase at displayed high price.
4. another player can enter a higher bid
5. the timer on bidding expires, and the item goes to the highest bidder.
The bid timer would only start once a bid had been entered that was
less than the asking price (high price), but within the range of
acceptable offers (no less than the low price).
I am loving the idea of crafters posting Item Orders for resources and
whatnot. I never thought of that, and it is brilliant! These would
work the same way as the other Item Orders - 100gp, list high and low
price, list time limits, post to the same place. At this point, there
would need to be categories, filters, and search options for that
bulletin board... lol
The idea was also put out there for Items that a player can get, but
has to bring to a crafter to fill. I am loving this! instead of the
uber item, they could get a deed (okay, for lack of being creative,
this is a recipe like in other games..). The player could fill the
recipe and have a crafter fill it (for a charge or free), or the
player could add the recipe to an Item Order (dbl click item order,
click recipe. VIOLA! imported). The item order, in this case, would
list what resources were still needed to fill the order. if the
player had gathered all or some of the needed resources, they could
add them to the Item Order using the same method (I like recycling
code that is already written). The item order would reflect those
resources as part of the order.
Uhm. I have to go and work now.. lol I've rambled on too much
anyhow. I will check back later.
Reply to Ironsmith's concerns, and they are also my concerns, and,
yes, now I have more... lol Working is so overrated...
I agree that there is a problem with the BOD system in regards to 'BOD
runner' accounts. However, this is a more complex issue. BOD runner
accounts are revenue :) And you would have to agree that a workshop
of 12 Tailors should be able to get a lot more done than one or two
tailors. IF someone wants to pay, and invest the time, in BOD runner
accounts, let them. However, the underlying problem is that that ONLY
way to get the good rewards is to have BOD runners.
I believe that the BOD timer fix is actually going to change all that.
The BOD runners can still do their thing, collecting hoards of bods,
while the lone crafter can keep filling and turning in BODs (good gold
sink/resource sink devs. good job), to keep collecting bods; keeping
those that they like, filling those they would toss on the floor in
disgust (those lame weapon bods are now worth something!!). I believe
this will fix that problem Ironsmith, I really do.
We cant do away with the BOD system, that is beloved by many. I still
get all gitty when I get a great BOD and race around to fill it :)
And I was here when Hanse rolled it out!
We cant do away with the people with multiple BOD runner accts. I
know it seems bad, but it actually is good for the game (revenue), and
good for the crafter that needs to fill some bods (BOD vendors).
So I have to disagree with getting rid of the BOD system, and
undermining the BOD runners.
I think that the BOD timer reset for turning in a BOD was a very good
strategic idea to let the lone crafter have a chance at the good
rewards for playing the game, while not disturbing the BOD runners too
much.
We love them, and we hate them.
A comment on Vandinos' ideas:
Love the auction vendor Idea. Yet another exciting enhancement to the
player vendor experience that enhances the current system, and doesn’t alienate the current model.
Another idea/use I had regarding the player-rented spots in some towns -
players could put a few items on these vendors, and sell runes to
their vendor shop. That would be more of a trade-show style thing,
but it is another use of the new ideas that would enhance the old
system.
I love the idea of BODs made by players posted up on a bulletin board, that is just a fantastic idea.
An I think, like WoW does, limit stacks, don't make them unstackable, but limit a maximum stack so that people cant farm and horde them to infinity, eventually they will run out of the space.
As for the vendor changes, make it serchable by house rather than by vendor. I ask this because some people have some really moronic setups that are just not worth the hastle of going through and being able to search from a centeral location, say a purchasable "Vendor Manager"
Basically what I was thinking with the Vendor Manager is that a vendor owner could apply percetage based discounts on types of items and the Vendor Manager would announce the sale an entice people to buy, plus add the ability to add a message that plays when someone comes within so many tiles.
I love the idea of BODs made by players posted up on a bulletin board, that is just a fantastic idea.
An I think, like WoW does, limit stacks, don't make them unstackable, but limit a maximum stack so that people cant farm and horde them to infinity, eventually they will run out of the space.
As for the vendor changes, make it serchable by house rather than by vendor. I ask this because some people have some really moronic setups that are just not worth the hastle of going through and being able to search from a centeral location, say a purchasable "Vendor Manager"
Basically what I was thinking with the Vendor Manager is that a vendor owner could apply percetage based discounts on types of items and the Vendor Manager would announce the sale an entice people to buy, plus add the ability to add a message that plays when someone comes within so many tiles.
In response to jonmcb:
Of course you are absolutely correct. I was thinking on my way in to work, and the problem is not the BOD-runners themselves, but the fact that the people with one or two crafters get shafted by the current system.
I also think you are correct in saying that the new timer may aid in the lone crafter doing BODs, but I am curious as to what you think about having an "offer valid only until {insert date here}" with respect to BODs.
I mean you can't really expect that an order should be valid for years on end - especially for smalls. So by using the new timer reset as well as a valid-for-time-period-X (or best-before date, etc), this would cause the BODs to
have a better turn-around.
The larges would not necessarily have to have an expiry, and once the small is obtained for the large, it can be filled and incorporated into the large, thus nullifying the timer on the small.
Again, just a thought, but I do agree with pretty much all that jonmcb said as far as the BOD-runners needed for revenue (from an EA standpoint) as well as having the large number of smalls kicking around the system (for the better of the game).
I do still stand by my opinion that the runics/kits need to be addressed. I am not certain if they should be part of the BOD reward system or not. Since the BOD-runners have a much greater (read: infinitely) chance to get the "great" BODs, we need some way to allow the casual (maybe more than casual, but you know what I mean) crafter a chance to get these items without having to pay through the nose. Maybe the runics/kits themselves could be craftable with the "fragments"? I don't know, but there are very few crafters around that can make a living without being BOD runners, and that is what I feel needs to be addressed.
-iron
I love all these ideas! Item decay and marketplaces! woohoo! I think the game is oversaturated with items and decay will definately help a lot! Great ideas everyone, keep up the good work.
Well, discussing some of the points-
People who have existing crafters on their accounts:
I think this would become a non-problem if the system by which a person can create an item is time prohibitive enough that a person would rather just buy a replacement than make one. I think time and effort are the main issues involved there, and if you dont do a 'combined-skills' type crafting system, making it a bit more inconvenient to actually do the crafting would likely help deter these folks a bit.
BODs, Runics, and Crafters:
I think the solution is simple; rework how runics operate, and allow a regular smith hammer a chance to produce magic items. This way, unless someone wants to go buy a runic and get more guaranteed levels of quality, they can hammer out items all day at random. In the meantime they are spending resources, gold, time, on this. I made the suggestion in another comment, but Ill repost it here!
Normal Hammers
200 Charges
0-5 Properties
1-100% Intensity
Making an item with properties takes 2 charges per property, but you can toggle to make standard GM equipment (for RP'ers) at 1 charge per item. This would mean that if someone was able to pop out all 5 property items, theyd only have 20 charges :-)
Spined
1-5 properties
50-100% intensity
60 charges
Horned
2-5 properties
65-100% intensity
40 charges
Barbed
3-5 properties
80-100% intensity
20 charges
Dull Copper
1-5 properties
30-100% intensity
150 charges
Copper
1-5 properties
45-100% intensity
75 charges
Shadow
2-5 properties
60-100% intensity
50 charges
Bronze
3-5 properties
65-100% intensity
35 charges
Gold
3-5 properties
70-100% intensity
30 charges
Agapite
3-5 properties
75-100% intensity
25 charges
Verite
4-5 properties
80-100% intensity
20 charges
Valorite
4-5 properties
90-100% intensity
15 charges
MrTact,
There are great parts of this idea and a few parts that I think may be problematic. I agree 100% that we're not doing enough to simply give crafters higher intensities and greated control on the creative process if we aren't also addressing how we can effectively move our product into our customers hands and hopefully make a buck.
I think what worries me about your idea is that it's a baby step toward a shard marketplace which I think may really hurt vendors in UO as you've said yourself. When other MMORPGs have a server wide marketplace and easy buying from any location I really feel this is going to be the demand once the technology is in place to do this sort of shopping at all. What I'm saying is that I think if you give people a taste, they'll really want to shop on the whole shard. I'm not sure that's not a great idea for commerce overall. It would have a really interesting fact when you put so many people on the same playing field. But the shop and the vendors are critical to UO. They're great fun to run. I've been operating a dirt mall in lake superior luna since the day AOS hit when I placed this plot and it's been a blast. We're overpriced but reliable and carry great stuff almost all of the time. So if we don't want to throw away the actual store fronts but want to move toward a marketplace economy someplace other than WBB why don't we incorporate travel into the shopping experience. Why not include a recall gem next to any item listed in the marketplace and require a player to travel to its location to buy the item. This gets players going out and learning who they're buying from, its amazing advertising for every shop on the shard and as you learn new favorite places you'll be more likely to return. Once the player gets to the location they should be able to buy the item easily w/o having to dig through the vendors but the system supports the shops that fill it by getting the character to the store where the item is being purchased...
One other consideration on a marketplace service... I think it's an excellent opportunity to introduce a nice gold sink on this system. The current vendor system is really so cheap and flawed in how it collects gold. I can load 100 million worth of goods on a vendor and sell them all in a span of 6 hours and pay no fees if I don't pass my 24 hour point on my vendor's contract. Why not shift to a system that charges a nominal amount for having an item listed (something similar to now) AND a % based transaction charge to fleece a bit more gold out of our totally bloated economy. Ebay gets away with it why not uo! I'd also say that a system that allowed people to list or not list their items in a larger marketplace might be a great way to go. I'm not sure if we really need a system that's tracking every piece of SOS preloot available on a vendor anywhere (though that might be cool also). Maybe a listing in the marketplace could be available with a doubling of the current vendor fees and totally optional for each item stocked.
Also... I totally agree with Noni-Trader... these new crafting resources would help player interactions and every class most if they appeared on distinct creatures with different ways of getting them... its simply no fun to have a system that pumps out the same loot to all different creatures with just varrying intensities on difficulty.
I would love to see DIFFERENT types of fragments available for these different gameplay areas:
- Fishers
- T hunters
- Standard Monters bashing
- Thief stealable off high level monsters
- Fell Champs
- Tram Ruleset Champs
- Some sort of Puzzle Quest
- Hags / Solen Style quest
In a system where the same fragments fall for all forms of loot it becomes a simple challenge to find which class gets the most of them fighting what monster and it just becomes farming all of the sudden.
-Danger
I say, besides the way fragments drop as Mr Powers suggested ... make fragments drop in the normal spawn all over the map in a system similar to the Tokuno drop system.
Any creature you kill ANYWHERE has a chance to drop a random fragment. Creatures in dungeons and with higher fame will have increased chances, as will creatures in Felucca. This way people wont simply camp certain monsters to get certain fragments. You could kill a mongbat horde and eventually get one.
It should also be a:
Random fishing pull up
Random TChest reward
Random BOD reward
Random DungeonChest find
basically make it so that players from every walk of playerstyle (like powers suggested) can get then, not just monster hunters. This way you dont create a simple relationship, you create a more complex one.
I like it overall... however I would say that making the repair lives of an item its overall durability.
I like much of what I see here even if I am not a fan of item decay. However, games do have to have an economy of scarcity rather then abundance to stay in balance.
My main initial suggestion is a much, much higher level of Free Repairs for Master level and higher crafters. Two percent is just feeble and hardly worth bothering with given the vagaries of the UO RNG. Make it an order or magnitude higher at 20% and even with PoF the goods will still go away on a predictable rate.
Chance of Free Repair without pF
Master 10%
GM 20%
105 25%
110 30%
115 35%
120 40%
This would also make those fairly useless 105, 110, and 115 Tailoring and Smithing scrolls worth bothering with again.
Kanids comments made me wonder if I had made my point clear enough. I think what would be great about the fragments is if they weren't randomly distributed but distributed really logically say:
Mining fragment - adds phys % chance
Fishing fragment - adds luck chance
T map fragment - adds slayer chance
These are totally just an idea. What I'm trying to get at is that if we get away from a system that dumps the same loot for all classes and all activities (instead rewards them equally but differently) we have a situation where everyone's loot is more meaningful for a much longer time. When spawn intensities are upped and all the sudden everyone is getting 90s luck stuff it feels like a party... for about a week. Then you realize you can only use X of it and you can only sell about as much as you can use yourself... If loot was specialized to both monsters being killed and classes that aren't necessarily combat the demand for fragments is distrubuted over a much larger playerbase than just the monster hunting crowd.
There is an added bonus in here too do distributing them in ways other than what is random. Supply and demand is a lot more effective when you segment what is being sought after. If there is a great demand for a particular classes fragments it will get that group out and doing their stuff to fill that niche. A perfect example of this working is in doom. I sell lamp posts. Lamps sell now for the exact price they sold for 1 year ago on lake superior, I sell them as well today at 175k as I did back then. I haven't lowered my price since January of '04. Thats not the case for almost any other doom rare. Lamps now sit days at a time without being stolen because there's not enough demand to create a group to gather one... other systems that are esentially open faucets just dump stuff in constantly diluting the value and interest in everything that's come before....
If people are worried about classes having sole domain over an area of enhancements just set the system up at the outset to randomize them seasonally.... it would be cool to have it random across shards even so that every shards players wouldn't necessarily be doing the same things in the same spot on every world...
- Danger
Great posts - I really liked the input by jonmcb. It is important that people of all level play -people with 12 tailors and people with 1 tailor. But anyhow...
I personally dislike item decay. Already I regularly am forced to throw out things because they simply will not fit in my house. So heaps of things are disposed of in game. And no one I know is 'satisfied' with their suits either. Everyone's always looking to upgrade. For example, adding the rune beatle carapace to a suit causes people to readjust every other piece of armor. And that continually happens, because it's rare to get all the resists, MR, LMC, and other properties you want on an item. I see tailoring as dynamic in many ways already.
What I don't see is much for the rest of the people in the umbrella of 'crafting' professions.
Mt. Tact, you mentioned that the issue is not supply and demand in your opinion. You supported that on the stratics boards by saying high end items (like doom arties) are rare and in low supply but low end items (like stone statues) are plentiful and in low demand.
But that is NOT the issue if you look at it from a crafters point of view. Your evaluation of the situation looks at the overall market and not just things craftable. The issue of concern is the excess of craftable items and the lack of demand for them, regardless of loot or arty situations. The things we can make are in large supply and low demand. Once you have a table and chairs, you don't need another. And that GM carpenter/Miner who has read up on stonecrafting just sits around. This goes far beyond item decay and tailor/smithy rewards and bod collecting.
This issue with the bods and the decay/fixing of armor really doesn't do anything for 'crafters', just tailors and smiths, who already have the most to do in game of all the crafters. I know it's unrealistic to expect every profession in crafting to be improved, but based on their similarity of skills, isn't it reasonable that they be included in these proposed changes? And changing crafting for items other than armor will ruffle a lot less feathers while giving crafters something to do.
I love that the blog format promotes discussion and ideas so well. I am really enjoying the comments and suggestions. I think this Marketplaces idea need a lot of refinement. Remember to ask yourselves, DOES THIS ENCOURAGE PLAYER INTERACTION? I'm hopeful that this won't turn into a resource for players not to have to meet their neighbors. But I LOVE the idea of a vendor filter. It's been asked for for quite a while.
PS. Please remember 'Crafting' is more than tailoring/smith.
Since I've been thinking about a player-to-player order system for a while, I'm going to lay out some ideas I've had about implementation. Forgive me if some of them appear tangential.
Goal
To design a system whereby players can place orders for any quantity of any standardized item -- manufactured items, gathered items, and other commodities. The system must allow the requestor the option of designating a specific vendor or placing the request on the open market.
Some Deed Specifications
A blank request deed should be available in much the same way as a commodity deed. Specifying your needs will require some sort of gump/dialog which will accept inputs including number of items, item type, and price to be paid for items. Once all fields are complete, you will be able to add that specific request to the deed. Once all requests have been added to the deed, you will be prompted to designate how long you would like the request to remain open. A separate button will then close the deed. Such a deed might look like this:
An Item Request Deed:
15 x Greater Heal Keg @ 2500gp each
20 x Greater Cure Keg @ 3000gp each
10 x Total Refreshment Keg @ 4500 each
15000 x Arrow @ 5gp each
10000 x Bolt @ 5gp each
5000 x plain cloth @ 10gp each
______________________
Total to be paid: 317,500 gp
There are 48 hours remaining to complete this request.
Upon closure of the deed, 317,500 gold will be removed from your bank (and you'll receive the standard notification message). This gold is in escrow until you either receive your items (in which case the gold is paid to the bank box of the person who filled the deed) or the time limit expires (in which case it returns to your own bank box).
To Post or Not To Post?
Depending upon the needs or desires of the requestor, this deed should be transferrable in at least two ways. I think most of us tend to develop long-standing relationships with a vendor whom we trust and whom we know will deliver quality goods in a timely fashion. So it just makes sense to be able to hand a request deed directly to a friend or trusted vendor.
On the other hand, MrTact's concept of an open-market trade board is excellent, enabling players with fewer social connections or players to whom price is more important to feed the fires of market capitalism.
How do we have both?
I propose a new craftable item, the same for all professions, that will enable this system to work as I've envisioned: A Crafter's Mark (or A Warrior's Mark, as the case may be). This item will simply be a recall rune graphic (and probably should require a recall rune upon which to mark). The Crafter's Mark will be crafted by using the tool of one's profession upon the rune, with the following result (for example):
A Crafter's Mark
Lord Sew-and-Sew, Legendary Tailor
of the guild 'Guild Name Here'
120 Tailoring
This eliminates fraudulent claims of ability, and would perhaps allow the deed requestor to specify skill level necessary to take the job (in applicable cases).
Each crafter will be required to "set" his/her mark to a request, thereby committing to honor the contract, before it becomes possible to add items/commodities to the deed. This will also enable the crafter to be paid, as the deed will now "know" where to deposit the gold (currently sitting in escrow) once the deed is redeemed. Setting the mark to the deed should probably be as simple as using the "Add item to this request" button and targetting the Crafter Mark.
For direct person-to-person transactions, the requestor could simply hand the deed to the crafter/gatherer, who would then affix their mark and trot off to fulfill the request. For trade board transactions, there would need to be an "Accept this Request" button on the board, which would then prompt the acceptor to target his/her mark, after which the Request Deed would drop into his/her pack.
Tired yet?
I have one more small specification which I think will really enrich the system. Deeds should accept other deeds as whole or partial fulfillment of requirements. Example:
Let's say I, as a guild quartermaster, make out the request above. It requires a variety of items. So I give it to a merchant I know, a prominent member of a craftsman's guild. He, anticipating demand for these types of items, has already farmed out requests for a few kegs here, a couple thousand arrows there, to many small crafters he knows. His price per item is a little lower, but it's guaranteed work for lower-level crafters who can't handle the more massive orders. Upon receiving his completed orders, he simply uses the "Add Item" button on the order I've given him and targets a smaller order. The "items" within that deed are transferred to my deed, and payment to the smaller craftsman is released. Once the middleman finishes filling the big order, he returns it to me, I retrieve my items (likely via a bank box), and he receives his payment.
Allowing deeds to fill deeds creates a market for this sort of wheeler-dealer merchant profession. It gives those players who are gifted speculators an in-game system in which to ply their trade.
I know this was a long post, so I thank those who've read it.
I like those thoughts.
I like what noni and mijac said too about the fragments - make high end resources obtainable through different paths.
Rainbow fish scales for fishing, or refined ginsing petals for alchemists, or something like that.
Danger, I was simply stating that I think that besides having logical locations for the fragments to be found in, they should also have a random chance to EACH be found anywhere from monster hunting ... the chance of getting them from doing that of course would have to be a LOT lower than from the direct-methods ... (like if you have a 10% chance to find a fishing-fragment while fishing, you should have a 1/1000 of finding one thru monster hunting) or something of that like ...this way, certain fragments dont become more valuable based simply on how many players of that type exist to keep supply going.
I would like to register support for limiting a vendor sorting feature to do one house at a time, not the entire screen. That way people can control who they want to buy from, and it doesn't make Luna hugely more attractive than single malls scattered around, just because you can access many houses of vendors at a time rather than one.
A smaller idea I had regarding armor sales that would be useful if both the bod timer and item decay are introduced: People need a way to easily buy/sell whole suits of armor. In the past, mostly it was GM suits of various armor types, not much variation to worry about. Now with all the different resists and properties, it woud be nice to make a special "armor display container". Ideally, it would look like an armor stand with the various pieces placed on, but functionally, it could be a simple container that could be opened to inspect individual pieces. The biggest part of it would be that it would display the sum of all properties of the suit inside when moused over (showing total resists, total regens, etc). It would save the merchants from having to add up all that info and write a paragraph for an item description, or include a book with the set. It would also help the shopper with a familiar listing of properties, and no worries about the seller making a mistake when adding up the properties (whether intentionally or not).
As to the player "bods". I agree that there will be issues of undercutting pricing, but I think it will eventually iron out. I used to sell BoS's full for 10K, but rapidly tired of restocking everyday. Sure, at first, alot of people will accept jobs for miniscule profit margins, but eventually they will realize that their time is worth more than that. I'd never sell recalls below 50gp personally, because I know I could sell them for almost that much to an NPC. Why sell to a player for less? Also, other buyers would place generous offers for things because they want them done quickly, so I'd grab the order for 100 recalls@75 each and let the one @40 each rot on the board. There should be no limit to the number of active requests you post, but each character should only be allowed to accept one order at a time to fill. That would reduce the grief potential quite a bit (and also, link the system with ignore list--no one on your ignore list is allowed to accept an order from you, and if someone accepts your order and time expires on it, you have a gump asking if you'd like them added to ignore list).
The thing I would like to see is the ability for customers to specify who is to fill their order. I think the easiest way to accomplish this would be to allow people to have personal boards, where a customer could post an order just for them. One of my customers might ask for 100 empty kegs@500 each, and I can accept or reject their offer. This wouldn't require us to be online at the same time. Guilds could also have a board at the guildhouse that only guildmembers could use, so that orders could be placed for fellow guildmates to fill. Orders should definitely have a defined time limit, so that if a buyer asked me for a large order, and I didn't fill it within a few days, he could post on a public board to get his items, without worrying that 2 weeks later, I'll finish his original order and he'll have to pay something he no longer needs.
Eh, I still don't see the point of having our favorite stuff break. It'll just push people towards quitting in the long run. 'I love my bow so much, when it breaks, im outta this game'. Those of us that work hard for what little 'uber' things we have will be screwed.
I want you to really think on this phrase that I've wished the dev team lived by: "Whenever you make it harder for the powergamer, you make it impossible for everyone else." These fixes shift the powergamers from doing what they do best, but it echoes down the chain... The mid level gamers get it rough, and the casual players get -SCREWED-.
So breaking items is a bad idea I think. I like how marties work... They add in new roleplayish items that are unique, and hey! We can dye them to match the suit now, too. Your favorite superhero might have lots of powerful armor and weapons at his disposal, but it isn't a random assortment of horridly crashing hues.
What I'd like to see? Hunting liches to get something like, ring of the undead, marty. Go hunt ancient wyrms to get draconic armor drops. I think it would be neat if EVERY monster had a marty specific to it that was kind rare but not overpowering.
Also something to think about that I would cry if it was implemented: FULL SUITS. Instead of just 'gloves of the sun' drop, why not leggings of the sun? Why not black lotus tunic? Why do all these neat items not have a matchin set? Now, it would be unbalancing if you did this for say, the heart of the lion, and every piece was 15/10/10/10/10 with 15 DCI. That'd be nuts. Maybe pieces to complement, that ends up as 'hey, this is a cool suit' instead of 'WTF UB3R OMGZHORS!!!11one'.
Maybe random loot is the way of the past? Maybe marties are the way of the future. I like the idea of people having suits built up on not-too-easy-to-get-but-unique-and-still-cool marties here and there. They do now, but it sucks because we lack things here and there. Like, there is only like one 'arms' major artifact, and one minor. Things need balanced like that.
If you continually up the mods whenever people are tired of the loot, it'll be to the point that a mongbat drops a 5x100% mod weapon upon death. Thats crap. There needs to be variety.
I kinda like the fragments idea; heres an additional idea to it. Make certain combonations turn into artifacts and supercharge a mod on it. Like say I make a kryss with a hit harm fragment, a hit stamina leech fragment, on top of its base 35% DI. the weapon could become the Ice Spike, and have its hit harm dramatically boosted. Wow, makes players want to try out a zillion combos eh? Perhaps make little books with some secret recepies low-end smithy bod rewards.
Eh, I went on and on, I hope you don't see this massive block of text and just cry; I'd love to see my ideas work somewhere for you.
while i like the marties & tomarties what i dont like is these contribute to the process of nerfing crafting. Personally i can see the benefits for MrTacts decay ideas and am generally favourable toward them, but i can also see why they are unpopular. I too arent overly keen on having to rebuild suits etc. But what i dont like the most is when it comes to artifacts and minor artifacts (along with other items) is that these items come into the game as items which are not craftable... When everyones suits are made up of artifacts and minor artifacts we see the problem of why crafters cant move their stuff.
Hence why id like to see such items in the future come into the game via my blueprint idea that i posted in the ideas den some months ago (and finally refound and 'bumped' yesterday)...
i wouldnt say that ALL items should be blueprints, but many existing and new items Could be blueprints which require a crafter to 'assemble'. And thus keeps the crafter in the loop, even when it comes to new loot drops, minor/major arties and even gifts & rewards.
And as other people have said, we need to ensure that the craftability changes arent just a tailor/smith affair.
They need to include bowcrafting, carpentry, inscription etc etc... and of course even COOKING!!
(like for example certain foods, make from certain 'fragments' or out of certain 'blueprints/recipes" could imbue properties upon the eater such as 20 minutes of +10% swing speed increase, or +4 MR for 10 mins... allowing access to properties people want/need to be competitive without it all having to come from armour/weapons - there's surely a certain part of coding for this already done since magical fish can gives bosts to stats for limited durations)
I have some ideas about how the fragments could work that would I believe provide a good balance for crafters. I would like to see most of the fragments be very common, i.e. cheap for crafters to buy. They should each modify a weapon with a specific property like ssi or hit cold area. A crafter would start by making a plain weapon. Then they would enhance the weapon with a fragment to add the desired property. Each time they do this, there is a good chance they will break the item. A successful enhance will add the property with a random intensity 1-100%. GM crafters would get a bonus to minimum of 5%, and another 5% per 5 skill points, so legendary crafters would be get intensities of 25-100%. Certain fragments, the ones more difficult to obtain, would also bump up the minimum intensity.
Now say someone asks my smith to make them a 5 property sword. I would have to obtain the necessary fragments that correspond to each property, and begin crafting. I attempt to use a fragment to add the first property, and have a 20% chance to succeed. The first four times, I break the sword, and start again. Finally, I get one with the first mod. Then I go to add a second, and again have a 20% chance to succeed. This means that it will take me many attempts, and use up a lot of fragments to get a 5 property item, but I can make a 1 or 2 property item quickly. A 1/5 chance to succeed yields an average of one success per 3125 attempts. So I will break 3124 of the basic swords before I finally get all 5 properties applied. So it would take me 1-2 hours of crafting to make it.
This accomplishes a few key things. One of them is that it will tend to separate players who enjoy crafting from those who use it as a means to an end. If all you needed to make a 5 property item was the correct five fragments, and 2 minutes time on your mule, who would buy from crafters? If instead, it took 1-2 hours, then the players who'd rather do other things will be willing to pay the crafter for their time. It also gives crafters a good reason to demand a reasonable profit. If it takes 100K worth of fragments, and 2 hours to make a sword, you can charge 200K for it. If it took 100K in materials, but only 2 minutes, your competitors would do it for 105K, or materials + 5K.
For the system to work, the fragments would have to be fairly common. Making one high-end item would burn through a couple thousand fragments. But if they were obtainable fairly easily, crafters should be able to buy them in bulk, while gatherers would have a good market to sell them to.
To keep runics a valuable part of the game, I would like to see them changed so that every runic had a max intensity of 100%. The variation would be in the number of properties, and the minimum intensities. That way, you could use, say a Agapite hammer to craft items with 3-4 random properties, and then you could still risk enhancing them with fragments to add the 4th and 5th property. ASHs would work similar to the current system, where they increase your success rate for enhancement by a small amount.
I think this would provide a viable living for those that want to be full-time crafters, and also allow others to replace their armor and weapons in a fairly quick and simple way. If you didn't want to spend as much on your items, you could ask for ones with a lower number of properties, since a 4 property item would be 5x easier to make than a 5, a 3 would be 5x easier(cheaper) than a 4 and so on. High end runics would still be a good way to bang out a bunch of good items quickly to provide a general selection of items on vendors, while fragment enhancing would be used to fill specific requests, and to enhance the items started with the low and mid level runics. Decent loot could be enhanced with added properties + a material type as well.
I think that one of the key ingredients to making the crafting profession viable is to make it involve a good amount of time and effort. If anyone could jump on their mule and churn out a hundred uber items a day, crafters will still have no job. If the time and effort involved deter the majority of players from doing it themselves, then those who want to be full-time crafters will have their niche.
kanid, danger etc
what do you think of the idea that maybe quests could be involved somehow?
OK, so the fragments could add properties, but maybe each different type of craftable item (ie swords, rings, bows, gorgets etc) each need their own limited charge quest item in order to be made?
For example, in order to craft rings, you have to do a quest for the Mystic Fingerbone, that comes with 20, or 50, or 100 or whatever charges?
This is just something I had theorised before when talking about restricted specialisation, and was wondering if anyone thought it might have a place in Tacts vision? Personally I like what tact has done so far, and would be cool to not have it in, but might be a chance for crafters to actually get some gameplay going, instead of just sitting at a forge all day.
Proposal:
(thanks to Archmule of Atlantic for discussing this with me)
OK, first I want to say this. I respect those of you who have spent the last couple years designing your suits and putting together the perfect set such that you dont want to lose it. I have one of my own, so I sympathize.
Part I.- Grandfathered items
All Current Artifacts
All Tokuno Majors and Minors that are currently in-game
All Currently Existing Equipment (loot and crafted), includes
These items will continue to follow the existing rules in-game concerning repair and upkeep.
Part II. - Breaking Items
All crafted items
All ilshenar minor artifacts
All future gauntlet artifacts (but only if they come in a system like the Tokuno marties, that is, a guaranteed drop for work over time)
Part III. - Items that dont break
Loot items (But only if they keep it highly random, so that its a crap shoot what you get! Cuz if I get something good, I sure dont want to play the lottery again for weeks or months or YEARS to get another one!!)
Part IV. - But Kanid, how do we crafters bring in the buyers?
Because, who wants to buy our stuff if it breaks but loot drops dont?!
Here is what you do. Make crafted items break, but make it so that crafted items can be made with a unique NEW set of properties that can ONLY be found on crafted items, that people will want.
What this does is it gives people the choice to use their existing suits, that dont break, use their found loot, which wont break, or the new fancy crafted items with properties they REALLY want, but will break. :-)
Some new property ideas ---
Reflect Spell Property (1-25%):
You have a 1-25% chance that any spell cast on you will be reversed back on its caster, at half strength.
Reflect Specials Property (1-25%):
You have a 1-25% chance that anyone who hits you with a special move, or skill ability will grant you their special move for a short period of time, at no mana cost, or reverse their special-move attack upon them.
ie- you get hit with bleed, they get hit with bleed. Consider it like a 'hit-bonding effect'
SKills (1-10):
Crafters can create items that can come equipped with skill bonuses.
The Usual (SSI, SDI, Enhance pots) (various %):
Allow these properties to be crafted onto items that they arent usually found on.
ie-
SSI- 1-10%, can be crafted on armor
SDI- 1-5%, can be crafted onto weapons or armor
Enhance Pots- 1-10%, can be crafted onto weapons or armor
Im sure there are more of these generics Im forgetting .. please remind me.
Double Slayers (random):
Allow crafters to craft weapons (bows, swords, etc) that can have double slayers on them.
Hit Life Drain (1-10%):
You have a 1-20% chance to have 50% of the damage dealt be taken from your target and given to you.
Hit Mana Drain (1-10%):
Similar to above, but for mana
Hit Stamina Drain (1-10%):
Similar to above, but for stamina
Hit Mage-Drain (1-10%):
Gives you a 1-10% chance of causing your targets magery to be reduced for a short period of time by 1/2 the damage dealt.
Hit Area Paralyze (1-25%):
Gives you a 1-25% chance to cause all targets within 5 tiles to be paralyzed for up to 5 seconds.
New Slayers! (Wolf, Fey, Astral):
Gives players new slayer options
OK, folks what ya think? It lets people who have uber suits keep em, it lets people who have unique items keep em, without worrying, but what it does is it sets a system up where people will slowly want to transition to the breaking items (crafted) because they have properties they want, not because they have to. Better to get em with honey Ive been told. :-)
Can anyone else come up with some neat new properties that crafters could have just for them?
I'd like to agree with the idea of the fragments coming from several different places. Fishing, mining, wood chopping could all give a random chance of a useful fragment.
I love the idea of the player Bods.
With a bit of work the marketplace could even work out the going rate for items.
Perhaps people could also post completed Bods on there, so somebody could look and see if anybody was selling 1000 pheonix feathers before they asked.
Perhaps this should only work with commodities.
i like the option somebody mentioned of the recall gems next to the items listed in the marketplace/bazzaar so that rather than purchasing directly from the marketplace interface you use it as a means to get to the vendor you want. That way it doesnt negate the efforts of those people who have vendors and shops etc.
Again, im reminded of the starwars galaxies bazaar, where i ended up using it just for advertising of my tailor shop. ("But this item for only 2000 credits at Feen's Fezeriffic Fashions at ***co-ords") Bleh...
Or people were just using it to sell off items they'd made to grind skill... in almost all cases selling them for ridiculously low prices just to rid themselves of them and make a bit of cash (altho there was the extra factor in SWG whereas you gained XP by people Using the item, hence the benefit of selling at a loss)
Anyway - I like the player bod idea, but the more im thinking about it the more i fail to see how it would physically work... im thinking grief prospects etc.
What im seeing it as is...
Sam Shopper wants a viking sword with 40%+ DI, 15%+ SSI and 10%+ HCI. He puts these values into his PBod (Player Bod), sets a price of 100k and posts it on the BodBoards...
Carl Crafter comes along and browses the PBod listing. Sees Sams PBod for his Viking Sword and thinks... "aha, I could fill this".
Now, one of two things happens;
1. Carl takes Sams Pbod from the board and runs off home with it to craft the sword to add to the PBod. (Pbod is no longer listed) Then adds the Sword to the PBod, then resubmits it to the BodBoard. Then Sam checks the BodBoard, "aha, It's been filled!" Takes the Bod down. Then claims his sword from it.
Problems: What if Carl goes away, puts the Bod in his secure to fill later, forgets about it or decides he couldnt be bothered? Does the Bod revert back to the board after a certain time?
Or
2. Carl sees Sams Pbod. Makes note of what Sam wants, rushes home to make it. Eventually crafts the sword. Rushes back to board. Finds Sams PBod again and fills it from the board. Sam then checks, sees it's filled. Goes and gets his sword from his PBod listed on the BodBoard.
Problems: What happens if Carl is not the only person filling it? What if Carl goes back to put the sword in, only notices that it's either been taken down/cancelled by Sam, or, Cathy Crafter has filled it before him. Frustrating indeed.
I guess looking at it, im liking option 1 the best.
And then payment.
I guess the only way i could see it working is if payment happens this way.
Sam makes PBod. Sets parameters of what he wants. Sets price of, eg, 100k.
It Costs him 100k to create and post the PBod. The 100k is held in the PBod.
When Carl comes along and takes the PBod, fills the PBod, then reposts the PBod back to the BodBoard, he Then gets a check for 100k.
I guess this way the money is held, Sam has had to outlay it first. Carl gets it upon completion.
Other factors...
Would there be a cost for submitting an PBod?
Is there a way to stop people posting a PBod that says "Eat at Joes!" etc (advertising, scam bods?)
Is there a method for stopping people from using PBods as a type of storage? ("hey i have this item, let's post a PBod, fill it myself, then leave it there til i want it?")
Will there be a limit per player of how many to post, will there be a limit of how many to take on?
I know none of this stuff is set, and you'rre just putting out ideas tact, so dont take my questions as demands for answers, im more just brainstorming myself...
Im thinking option 1 above... a system could work like this.
Sam posts Pbod for Viking Sword by entering in wants, and posting (and paying at that time) a price.
Carl sees Sams Pbod, 'checks it out' of the board, takes it home to fill.
Sam sees that Carl has taken his PBod.
Carl crafts item.
Carls adds crafted item to Pbod.
Carls takes Pbod back to BodBoard.
Carls submits filled in PBod to BodBoard and gets his 100k Payment.
Sam checks BodBoard, sees it has beeen filled.
Takes Pbod off BodBoard (presumably from an interface that shows his own listings only)
Claims his Sword from his PBod.
Everybody is happy...
Would BodBoards be regional, facet based, or shardwide? (im thinking sharwide)
Anyway, i'm really piling on the text here, so i'll leave it at that for now.
- Feen
I like these ideas, it works some what like other ideas I've seen in other games.
Crafting and vendors are one of the most interesting and difficult elements to master. One of the current problems is that most crafter made armor can not come close to the magic loot that is dropped. And its impossible to compete with that.. enhancing is currently the only way to compete and its very chancy.
I can remember when GM made armor was in some ways as good or better than magic armor. I'd like to see the system bring an equivalency to the board
Feenicks:
Ah yes, I thought about a lot of these things. In your example, the Player BODs (we really need a better name for these) would have a time limit on them. Either there is an unmodifiable timer on them (like 48 hours), or there is a drop-down that Sam could chose when making the BOD, and select something like 12, 24, or 48 hours as a limit. In this case, if Carl Crafter tossed the BOD in his secure and didn't fill it, it would return to the BOD Board after that timer expired, and the one in his secure would read 'expired' when he opened it later.
In example #2 - that is why we instead would have time for bids (again, either hard-coded timer, or player-chosen). Carl crafter would either take the player BOD from the board for the shown price, or make a bid on it, higher that the player's posted price. If Carl choose the displayed price, the player BOD would be marked on the board as "In Work", and Carl would get a BOD in his backpack for the item, with a timer on it.
About cancellation: Sam would be able to cancel the order at any time (and get his money back) as long as a player does not have the BOD to fill (so it could be cancelled when being bid on, but when Carl picked it up, it could no longer be cancelled).
Would there be a cost for submitting a PBod? YES!! MMMM!! Gold sink!! YAY! Maybe 1k? Not a lot, but a nominal fee.
About the scam/spam bods.. The options on the BOD would be static, there is nothing that you would type in (other than the pricing stuff). So no problem there.
Player Bods would have many timers. There would be a timer for how long a PBod is on the board unfilled. When the timer expires (probably a week?), the money would go back in to the player's bank (minus the posting fee of course). This would happen when someone set an unreasonable price, or the item was a little too UBER for anyone to make.
When an item was filled and posted back to the board, the item would be placed in the bank of the owner. The board couldnt be used as storage. Although, i think that the listing on the board should remain for another 24 hours as "filled and delivered".
I think there should be a limit on how many player bods someone can take at a time to go fill, but i think that htere should not be a limit on how many someone can post. The gold comes right out of thier bank to an intermediary in this system, so if they want to post 10 mil worth of stuff and have their money tied up for at max 9 days, power to them.. lol.
So these are my ideas on problems that we could run in to with such a system. I sure do like this idea a lot!
To all with the ideas about fragments:
I like what I read on this more and more. There are so many different magical properties, there could be a very large number of fragement types (how would you handle that tact?). I like the idea of having certain types only available from certain avenues. Brilliant. This could:
Make tram rulest champ spawns beneficial to go to (the spawn and the champ could have chances on certain fragments with the champ offering 90+% chance of a fragment distributed like the power scrolls).
Revitalize and recycle ingame things, introducing nothing new except the fragments. I like the idea of making use of what we have. The world is so huge already, and we dont need another spot that EVERYONE farms..
I REALLY like the idea of making some resources only spawn in specific dungeons, and for those dungeons on the FEL side; twice the chance of recieving the fragments (or the same chance, but twice the fragments would spawn when you get them).
I especially like the idea of using current other crafter skills to get some of the fragments. Fishing; mining; stone mining; digging for sand (Can you say "sand dolar fragments?" lol); lumberjacking (PINECONES!!! LOL); begging (Please sir, can i have some more???); Stealing from NPC's/monsters); treasure hunting; and even new quests. Bring on the content!! Again - the fragments would either spawn in twice the quantity, or twice the chance to get them in Fel.
You know, I would have to get another account so i could get more slots for the new crafters I would have to build to be able to get all this stuff..
HOWEVER. I would like to propse a different idea for fragments:
We instead have 10 or so different types of fragments,
Alchemists could use different combinations of them to create powders; differt combinations of 2-3 of the resources would form different powders that would form all the different types of magical enhancements for weapons and armor (ALL weapons and armor - bows included).
Alchemists could only make the poweders though, they couldn't apply them.
Taste ID or Arms Lore could ID the powder. The powder would have to be ID'd to be used.. (Recycle unused skills).
Bowcraft/flectchers, carpenters, tinkers, blacksmiths, and tailors could use different powders on the weapons/armor to apply the magical abilities.
This uses ALL the professions. People need to fight to get some of the resources. Treasure hunters are needed to get some of them. Fishers are needed for some, and the previously mentioned gathering professions are needed for the others.
They sell the fragments to alchemists.
Alchemists sell the powder to crafters.
Crafters sell the products to everyone else.
Wow, lots of markups. That is intenional.
Thoughts?
The ability to make an "action" type vendor would be GREAT!
It is the ability to bid on an item.
Let the community figure out who has the best auction house.
I vote yes to the fragments, to the recall button, to the central message boards, and to PBODs.
Maybe add that if I drop something onto my vendor I can click a button to add it to the central database (costs 1000gp?).
It would also be neat to have multiple people fill one PBOD. For example I want 1000 fragments and will pay 10gp each. Fred has been out hunting for 20 minutes and collected 32 fragments. He can drop them in and get his 320gp right away.
I've read all the posts so far plus the comments & thought I'd post a few of my own...
there seem to be 3 main issues being raised here (although not exactly the same as the three headings as your blog entries)
1. Desirability of player crafted weapons/armour
2. What to do with the BOD system
3. Getting the goods to the consumer.
so, first point:
Desirability of player crafted goods
To begin with, I personally feel item decay isn't too much of a problem - items should break if they fall to 0 durability, but other than that I see no real need for change - it clearly shows on the item properties how much durability is left so people just need to monitor it. I certainly don't want my armour to wear out after a set number of "uses", but there can be very few people who have achieved the "perfect" suit so there's always room for new stuff... one minor point - I'd like to see the chance of repairing an item to be linked to the chance of making the same item & perhaps the chance of not reducing durability linked to the chance of making it exceptional - at the moment it seems I have as much chance of reducing durability when repairing a bandana as I do on a plate tunic, despite my crafting chances being 100/100 for the bandana and 80.6/35.6 for the tunic!
The problem is the huge gap between the quality of GM stuff and the quality of loot - I can get better stuff off relatively low level creatures (fame level 2!) than I can craft after collecting bods from the day they came out... so...
1. No more major artifact spawns - decorations (lamp posts etc.) can stay, and the people who already have major weapon/armour artifacts can now consider them rares, but there should be no more spawns of them except possibly the very occasional event like the Tok scenario & the 7th anniversery items (once a year tops).
I personally do like the idea of minor arties spawning under the current Tok system either in all dungeons, or from certain creature groups, but they should be much harder to get - a mate of mine has reported being able to get up to 10 tok marties an hour with his tamer & luck suit - about 1 a week would be better in my opinion... they should also be (mostly) decorative or at least not equipment (like the dyes)... if they're dungeon specific it'll also encourage people to visit places other than doom...
2. *Drastically* reduce the quality of loot from monsters - there have been various events that have contributed to the death of the crafted goods market, but the one that made me stop making plain gm armour was the last loot readjustment...
if the best GM (non runic) armour has 43 resist total (i.e. gm valorite or barbed studded/bone armour), then a top-end unenhanced looted piece should be no better than that (scaled appropriately for other properties)... this way you'll still get the odd good bit off high-end creatures (after you get it enhanced), but players can craft better (more on that later)... many players will complain, but then again they're already getting tonnes of gold as loot - unless all crafted items are automatically worth double anything looted then the system is unbalanced...
T-maps & fishing chests should have better loot than you can get off monsters to reflect the additional dangers and the time invested in acquiring the relevant skills etc., but still as not good as the top end runic stuff... and perhaps the chance of a t-map/fishing themed marty as well...
Obviously these changes to loot would not apply to stuff like jewellery that can't be crafted...
oh, and leave the junk in - it adds colour and can come in handy sometimes!
3. Improve the quality of PC crafted items... there are loads of things that could be done which would need to be tested out first to see how they work, but a few examples - make the exceptional bonus on runic armour 15 instead of just 6 & allow low-end runic weapons a chance of a damage increase (the GM bonus seems to 'eat' any DI), improve low end runics (burning a whole 50 charge D/C hammer & god knows how many ingots in the hope of getting perhaps one useful slayer that still might not be as good a looted one is pointless), add an 'emphasis' option that would increase the chance of chosen properties...
these are just quick examples - there are probably a great many better ideas that people here or on the Stratics forums have posted so I'll not go any further on this...
Obviously the biggest part of improving crafted items will relate to BODs and giving people with a single account and one crafter a reasonable chance of getting the high end runics without having to spend millions on buying the BODs... I'll crack open a beer & post my (hopefully shorter!) thoughts on that in a minute...
and before I hit the publish button, THANKYOU!... this blog of yours could end up being one of the best things that has happened to UO for some considerable time (I'm a 4 year vet btw.)... even if I haven't agreed 100% with everything you or the people posting comments have said it's all been well reasoned, constructive discussion and this kind of interaction could produce much better results for UO than the shouting-fest that the forums can sometimes descend into... keep it up!
I like the vendor idea, vendor shopping can be frustrating at times. My friend and I had an idea to address finding items on vendors and we have slowly started programming a web page in our spare time outside of work. Our idea was to let users set up vendors and place items, quantities, and prices on them. We planned to limit the scope at first to equipable and consumable items and some artifacts. The vendor would have shard, facet and the UO sextant coordinates of where the vendor was and an option to find the nearest mooongate/dungeon/town/point of interest to the vendor. Also the web page has the capabilites to search for specific item types and property threshholds.
The Ultima team has access to the database of items to be able to implement our idea perfectly. Our site would be limited by factors such as people having to maintain their inventories. I think this would be a perfect addition to the myUO web site. Some other benefits of having a searchable catalog of items is that it gives people an idea of items that are marketable and ideas on how to price things.
I realize the amount of items on vendors must be vast but I think a searchable catalog could be implemented properly. This catalog would also give people who want to set up vendor malls in non-prime real estate more of a fighting chance of getting sales if they can offer a vendor setup worth marking.
I think being able to search all the vendors in UO would be the ultimate killer web app for UO. This combined with the extra vendor in game functionality you described would be sweet.
ok... second point
BODs..
on the whole I feel that we should wait and see what effect the timer reset change has, but a few thoughts...
1. the rewards - runics do need improving to make them useful - I use some fairly non-standard suits of armour and calculated that it was *theoretically* possible for me to improve 2 of my characters' suits with spined runics and due to having a few very good other pieces in my suits it shouldn't have been difficult... on paper!... after burning though 4 kits I'd got one 2 resist point improvement for one suit and a more preferable distribution of resists for another... that was only making 1 piece of armour for each!... and i mentioned the futility of using d/c hammers in my previous post...
the idea of fragments really sounds like a replacement for the runic system, except with a bit more "directability"... i'm generally in favour of fixing existing systems rather than introducing new ones, but I freely admit I need the time to think through the ramifications - I'm mainly thinking in terms of modifications rather than additions right now...
2. making high end rewards available to to single account players - as i said before, I'd like to see what effect the bod-timer change has before any more changes, but a couple of ideas..
make the bod timer account based instead of character (you can get 1 bod on every shard every 6 hours - if you have 10 crafters across 10 different shards then you can get 10 bods, but if you have 50 crafters across 10 shards you still only get one bod per shard)... this I imagine wouldn't happen in real terms 'cos it would make many multi account players close their mule accounts (loss of revenue for EA), but really! - if it weren't for bods would anyone actually need multiple crafters?
An idea I really like is 'chaining' bods... if you get a bod of a particular type you have increased chance of getting a similar bod next time... this could make filling Lbods much easier... in order to prevent a mass increase in the number of weapon bods etc. it may have to be set to only happen after getting an armour bod, but it could still work in theory..
so say you get a 10/normal/valorite/chain coif bod... the system 'remembers' what you got and your next bod has e.g. a 25% better then normal chance of being chainmail, if it is then it has a 25% better than normal chance of being valorite (so if 5% of bods are val then it has a 30% chance and the remaining metal types are lowered by evenly to total to 70%)... if it fails any of the 'chain links' then the rest of the properties are generated as normal and the chain is broken, but a new one will start from that point based on whatever bod you get...(i don't know the order the properties of bods are generated in, but I think the principle stands)
(note: I've seen posts on Stratics suggesting similar ideas to this one - this is my version which to me seems the most reasonable (although it would, wouldn't it!))
I realise that implementing this would probably mean "breaking & resetting" the whole bod system so it may not be viable... in the past I've spent several years designing database systems, including the front-end client and I've carried out that kind of job on systems where I've written every piece of code and built every object within them... I dread to think how big a job it would be on something as vast as UO!
3rd post...
getting the goods to the consumers...
OK first off, this idea of Player-BODs I can only see working for stackable items etc. like resources, scrolls, or kegs of potions... for two reasons..
1 - implementing the system - the sheer number of properties to take into account - taking weapons as an example, I just counted 28 item properties available on a weapon according to uo.com... to make it possible to specify a weapon you want would require a huge system that would be incredibly unwieldy to use... and if you wanted something namable like an artifact, would you instead have to list all its properties?
2 - meeting the requests - again using weapons as an example, unless you knew you already had an item meeting those requirements (how many vendor operators out there have memorised every single item they own?) you could never realistically accept an order - if someone wants a war mace with 40+ DI, 20+ SSI and 50% poison damage, 50% fire damage, how many runic charges are you going to have to burn through to meet that demand?.. Yes, there have been suggestions of making it possible to direct what properties you get on an item (I even suggested it myself in a previous post), but unless that happens (and I'm not sure that's necessarily the best way for crafting to go) then all that would happen is that people would grab the high-paying requests in the *hope* that they could complete them, thus preventing other players (who may already have the item in hand) from being able to take part...
Next up - databases of everything on vendors...
again I feel this is logistically impractical - the sheer number of items and the number of options on them would make this impossibly complicated for anyone to use...
My idea - "advertising billboards"
i only came up with this today so I'm sure there are holes it it, but...
every bank has a new bulletin board added to it... people can pay 1000 gold to have an advert posted that would last one week.. only house owners can post an advert (if you rent vendors in someone else's house - make advertising part of the agreement!) and you can only post one advert per week per bank (these two rules prevent spamming)...
when you access the advertising board you would be presented with a randomly selected advert (again to prevent big guild vendors from "ruling the roost")... from that point you scroll through the adverts in either a) random order, or b) the posting order starting form that point...
An advert would consist of: the house name, 'free' gate/recall buttons (uses just mana or possibly not even that), and icons to indicate the categories of goods sold.. (that last aspect would need some discussion to decide on a workable list)... oh, and an option to mark a rune for free as well.. adverts would include similar colour coding/signs to the colouration/marking of runes to show whether they were on tram/fel/malas etc. (so you can't end up in fel without being aware that's where you're going)
It could also be possible to filter the adverts by categories (according to those selected by the poster)...
This could have many effects.... it'd be a goldsink without alienating the 'minor' players - if you can afford the money to set up a vendor then you can afford at least 1k a week... but a *rough* count off the top of my head shows at least 35 banks (including Fel) so bigger vendors can drop money into massive advertising while still not making it impossible for the small guy to get by...
If players go for it it might reduce the clutter of so many advertising runes all over the place... (slightly!)
by making it random each time you open it it's fair for the small player - at the moment the only people who really do well are either people whose houses are next to a road or those who can afford to have someone spend all day at west brit bank casting gate spells...
*things i thought of and rejected/not fully thought through (in order to forestall a few comments) -
feedback - apart from this clashing with my idea of it being random (you'd have to visit a shop and then find the same advert again.. maybe easy to do at cove or umbra, but try it with the 100's of adverts you'd get at brit or luna)... also this could/would end up with people spamming "this vendor is crap" massages against the competition....
Vendor total: you could list the number of vendors at a house (taken off the house properties)... problem is that I don;t want to alienate the small-guy - example: I currently have 21 vendors but i worked my way up and I still run all of them on my own - I don't consider my shop to be a mall... at my previous house I had 9 at my 'highest' point and got very good feedback from everyone who i talked to... actually i'm making less now than i used to (thanks mainly to the loot bump) - losing money on many vendors in fact... and i'm still trying to track down someone else's shop that only had one or two vendors, that was in the middle of nowhere but had items i would like that were cheaper than anywhere else i've seen (why didn't a mark a damn rune?!?)... the lesson? - bigger isn't always better (although try telling the ladies that!)
Average price - only thought of this a minute ago... the system could take all the items for sale & average out the price to give you an idea of how cheap the vendor is... pitfalls: you have no idea what those items are (could be stacks of 100 regs or deeds for 1k of regs but the system couldn't tell the difference... or try comparing a high end weapon with a low one), and people could fill vendors' spare space with junk for 1gp each to lower the average...
that's my thoughts for now... later on or sometime tomorrow I'll have a look through the comments again and post some (hopefully) shorter responses to specific suggestions..
keep it up everyone (and thanks again MrTact!)
Mr. Tact, I know there are a lot of people who like the idea of item decay; and I believe most of these people are not people who go through a lot of wear and tear on items.
When I play UO, I often set myself up to take a massive beating. In three hours of pvm, I usually have to take breaks to fix my armor twice and my weapons at least three times.
Item wear as you have it already has the limitation on how long we can play before we go home, but these items are now also so tuned to our characters with so much finesse that it takes me weeks or months or even a year to put together one suit.
I leant one suit to a friend once half a year ago, and when I did not get the suit back, I did not play that char for six months until I finally managed to put together another one that let me play my vampire/mage in high end pvp/pvm.
Here are a few examples of what wears out armor and weapons at the rate of up to 60 durability points an hour on items.
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/glande5/item_wear.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/glande5/item_wear2.jpg
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/glande5/item_wear3.jpg
Anyway, this is an important part of the game to me, and by making stuff that wears out wear out permanently, you will be taking this away.
The only way you will not be taking this away is if you make it so that i can replace a specific piece of armor with very specific resists and attributes and without the need for "luck" to get a hammer that lets me make it and then "luck" to get what I need. Such a change would be welcome, but since I do not think letting us pick valorite-hammer caliber items exactly as we want them without needing one, you are better off just not wearing out our stuff permanently.
Thank you kindly. **Hopes my characters don't all get ruined**
With regard to player BOD's or any variation of tasks and rewards, simply put, the randomness of the rewards (and the rarity of the best rewards) is what has ruined the crafting system.
Since you began BOD's, only the lucky or very rich have gotten the best items.
Only the lucky get +20 smithing scrolls.
Only the lucky get +60 Ancient Smithy Hammers.
Only the lucky get verite or valorite hammers.
And only the lucky get exactly an item that helps their characters.
So you have 10,000 people on a shard who either have junk or have to pay millions to the lucky and the already-rich, and you have a few people who get everything.
Fine, do player BOD's, but please do not have randomness have anything to do with the rewards.
Thanks.
Runics dont need to be removed to accomidate the new fragments. Both can be used in the same system.
- Remove the randomness from properties added by runics.
- Give each level of runics a max combined intensity that can be added to an item.
- Max the max intensity for any one property, on any runic, 100.
-Keep limit on number of properties depending on runic type.
- Reqiure fragments to add given enchantment.
- Link Enchantments to skills to increase crafter template types and specialisation.
http://boards.stratics.com/php-bin/uo/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=uoideas&Number=5736181&Forum=,,f227,,&Words=crafting%20proposal&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Main=5732088&Search=true&where=bodysub&Name=&daterange=0&newerval=&newertype=&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post5736181
MrTact just quit your ideas suck and you suck at uo. your whole idea needs to be reworked because it sucks. please ruin the game more! go work on somthing that will acctually help the game out because this will not.
ok the idea of making my artifacts decay or whatever you want to do is just retarded. i dont want to go get new ones. i spent my time in doom getting my artifacts im not going back. i spend almost all of my time in fel im not going to try and replace my items after they break. anyone in favor of your dumb ass idea is probly some noob that sits in trammel all day killing trolls and doesnt really have any of there own artifacts and they think your idea will get them some. you suck at uo kthxbye.
The wit.
The penetrating insight.
The scintillating repartee.
Bravo!
assuming that 'fragments' are to be used in conjunction with runics, one thing that concerns me is that unless they're really easy to get then they're going to slow down the crafting process as they're an extra job to carry out;
collect bods; collect metals needed for bods; complete the bods to get runics; collect more metals to make the items; collect the fragments (from whatever source - more bods?); and finally craft the items...
Also, if they come from any dangerous sources (e.g. killing high-end monsters/collecting from areas where they spawn) then it's going to be another change that means that the little-guy can't compete with the guild-operated vendors - I believe that it should be possible for someone with just a smith & miner to be able to create items to the same level as the big guilds...
however, there is potential in the idea... obviously there can;t be too many types of fragments due to the storage requirements, but perhaps if they added random properties from certain groups and you could emphasise certain properties over others..
e.g. a fire fragment adds fire damage type & hit fireball to a weapon and you use sliders to adjust what percentage of the fragments' "power" went into each, with your skill affecting how close the final outcome is to your selection (up to 99% at legendary maybe 80-90% at gm)... or if a fragment adds resist to armour you could adjust 5 sliders to select between the different types...
it shouldn't be completely predicatable as it would become overpowered - we don't want people churning out endless amounts of undead/demon/elemental multi slayers with 140 luck or 100 resist+20% lrc medable armour as that's no better than the situation with people going around in suits entirely made up of artifacts....
Just a thought about the player made BODS. They should only be postable on public notice boards - Like the ones near the banks.
I guess my hope for this would be that it would give crafters more of a reason to craft in public areas where they are available for people to ask for repairs, specific items etc.
I can see your concern about mass produced awesome items. I guess that the availability of these awesome items would depend on the availability of the highend runics. At the moment they are very few and Far between, pretty much anything above bronze is impossible to find, so I dont beleive it would be an issue - especially with item decay. Also high end runics have rather few charges. As long as highend runics are rare enough then there shouldn't be an issue.
Re: player BODS
Mr Tact - when you have the time could you clarify whether you envision these being just for stackable resources like ingots & specific items/craftables like kegs etc., or for everything (like specific pieces of armour or weapons)?
Cowgoesmoo's right that if we go this way, the delivery method would need to be via a network of special bulletin boards at banks...
(Since they have a lot in common with Commodity Deeds as well ('cos you can retreive the items) perhaps the name should be something along the lines of "Bulk Commodity Orders", or "Player BCO's"?... maybe "Player Commodity Orders" if the include single items?)
Fragments & Runics:
although I've said I can see a way that a 'fragment' system could work, I'm not really in favour of it 'cos of the added time & complexity of crafting... we already have a system in place that could be 'tweaked' instead of adding potentially huge new bolt-on...
I'd rather see a situation where runics above bronze are attainable by the average player... I don't mean that everyone should be getting half a dozen valorite hammers a week, just that it's possible for a player to complete a high-end Lbod without needing multiple smiths and/or a bank balance of 10+ million...
incidentally, I really don't think that player interaction should be forced upon people in the way that some posters here seem to be suggesting - sometimes I want to interact and sometimes I don't... the antisocial behaviour that I've seen during the Tok scenario (kill stealing, randomly dropping & abandoning EV's in highly populated areas, etc.) has made me very keen to stick to my small circle of close friends recently... (this doesn't apply to absolutely everyone - some people have shown exemplary behaviour, but I've come across more arseholes in the last few weeks than I have in my previous 4 years)... it should be up to the individual...
Suggested vendor changes:
making offers for vendor owners to accept/reject:
I don't think this would work - you'd end up with a situation where a vendor owner would spend all of his time rejecting offers of "1gp for your item worth 20k" posted by people hoping that you press the wrong button (just like all those spam-bots that send you authorisation requests on ICQ)
View all items & filter options:
This could really work!.. I think per house (via the shop sign) rather than 'vendors on screen' would be more practical from both a usabilty point of view, and for implentation ...
then a simple filter similar to that for bod books, e.g. a 'view all items' option gives an npc-vendor type list, and filter button is available... you select the overall category - weapons, armour, inscription items, stackable resources, etc... then that gives a sub menu specific to that category - like bod books, not too specific - e.g. weapons could be...
- skill requirement (with Use Best being independent of this - appears in all lists regardless..& mage weapon counting as a seperate skill)
- one handed, two handed or both
- slayer property present toggle (no need to specify what type)
- luck present toggle (any amount)
- spell channeling present toggle
obviously that's just a quick suggestion off the top of my head for some of the major properties, but it would probably give you a manageable list on most shops (in my example at least...)
On a related subject, I feel the vendor naming system should be changed - vendors are supposed to be npc's - non-player characters - how many people have you met called "Potions+Bandies" (the first vendor i saw after leaving my own shop)?... these kind of shops are extremely ugly (I'm not a RP'er, I just feel a certain amount of "realism" makes the game more immersive and thus enjoyable) - wasn't this what the shop name option was meant for?... a randomly selected name (with a regenerate-name option in case you don't like the one given first time around) plus a vendor-orientated list of selectable titles (like with barkeeps) would be far more in keeping with the spirit of the game in my opinion (and while I'm on a drunken rant, make the signposts display runic script instead of english/latin alphabet like in Ultima 7!).
Some of the fragments could also be obtainable only through T maps and dungeon chests.
LOL gotta love the idea MR TACT but come on want to see what it does to a economy as far as the vendor idea goes look at the bazaar in EQ since it is the closest thing to what you are wanting to create. Seems to me that you are hitting on alot of the Idea's from EQ and thinking less out of the box. sorry but i left EQ for UO and brought my wife with me Mainly due to the fact that UO was not and at this time is still not Anything like EQ in that almost anything you want to do or want for gear you can get with either 1-2 people if all the good Items in the game go to being on mobs that require large amounts of people to kill it will be just as bad as EQ IMHO.
Sorry for the long post, but this was something I recently posted up at the stratics forums that well realy was a reply to this blog of yours =P. Anyways, sorry again for the length but it was my idea based on some of yours. Do not mind some of the "titles" i used as they were just for simplicities sake.
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I've played UO since about 97-98 and I recently started playing it again about 3 months ago. I've tried to keep well read on stratics and various other sites about all the new updates to the game. What I have noticed is a few problems within the current UO content. Instead of complaining, I feel that the player base should offer some new ideas to help improve the game rather than increase the problem, which has apparently happened over the years. I'll list a few problems and ideas for fixes. If anyone else has an idea for a fix, feel free to add.
Keep in mind these are content improvements, and not powergamer enhancements. I do realize that some of these ideas have already been braught up and they are wonderful ideas that should be explored more by everyone.
----Crafters
Present day UO has an obvious inflation problem and requires some sort of money sink. What I'm gonna guess is that the dev team is focusing on making items decay faster, and increasing the BoD rate. This gives the impression of more circulation and would likely lower prices on crafted gear. Hence making crafters viable again. While this creates gold circulation, it creates high-end item inflation. Also considering that at least 60% of uo's population has maxed out crafting characters the market is fairly dead. Why buy it, when you can make it. In this case, why buy a Valorite Hammer when you have a much better chance of getting them now with the re-vamped BoD system.
Idea for Fix-
1.Make the runic hammers craftable with tinkering skill. This can be easily done via special crafting materials that only certain monsters drop, or even randomly like the tokuno artifacts. This creates a market that is applicable to both crafters and pvm'ers. You can push this further with craftable artifacts and jewelry using the same method rather than craftable hammers.
1a. If PvP is also a concern then make the monsters mid-high difficulty and place them randomly all over felucca. This allows for a better reason to rebalance PvP rather than it looking like a nerf, because a reason is developed as to why you should balance PvP.
2. Crafting skills need more specialized variety rather than overall variety. Add more materials to crafting and jump start specialized crafting. 50 star saphires + wood = Water Elemental Slayer Bow for example. Again you create an additional market for players to spend money. I've read a few ideas of combining skills to go with this by other people. Examples to just play around with-
2a. Scribe+Magery+Tinker= Enhance weapons with charge based spells using normal materials, or give them permanent spell effects using rare materials.
2b. Smith+ItemID+ArmsLore= Enahnce %based properties of items including defense %, hci%,ect..
3. *must have* Item Decay/Insurance- Increase Item decay by at least 2-300% and make Item Insurance based on intensity/rarity. Ex- Regular dagger cost 100gp, blade of insanity cost 50,000gp to insure. Sounds extreme, but should considered more like a tax on being wealthy. This will definitely give a big boom to the market and balance prices on artifacts since they'll become investments rather than another part of the collection.
4. Pentalties-
Armor - 70 resist leather armor is a bad idea. Non-Medable 70 resist platemail is a good idea and makes more sense. Mage Armor is still a good idea, but should give penalties like mage weapons, -skill. I realy liked the idea of the -skill system and felt it should be used more. Perhaps even additions in benefits contrasted to the negatives.
Examples-
4a. Bow of Examples - Elemental Slayer 50%SSI,50%HCI -30hp,-30mana
4b. Armor of Whatever - Divine Protection*, +20HP 10% all resist, +10 Chivalry
*= resist% bonus based on karma level...lev4 karma +30% all resist, or possibly MR, Defence Chance%, ect..
4c. Cloak of "insert name" - +30 Hiding/Stealth/Ninjitsu -30 best weapon skill
4D. Full Example- Take the cloak and add the bow. Now use +15 Jewelry for your weapon skills *2 pieces*, and you get the idea of new templates.
5. PVP- While I'm not a PvP'er I am aware that a lot of people are. Allow for more specially crafted faction items, guild-war based items, and evil/good items. My best idea as to how to work this into what I've already suggest would primarily on pvm fame, murder counts, faction kills, *new* anti-murder counts.
5a. Guild-War- Player Value, for simplicity, based on player fame.
-EX. BoB kills his guildwar enemy *Lord* Fred and earns 5 "whatever" ingots. After a week he has 200 "whatever" ingots. Guild blacksmith can turn "whatever" ingots into "whatever" sword.
5b. Faction- Same system but based on kills.
5c. Evil/Good- This is based on counts. For each blue a murderer kills he recieves X ammount of redeemable points. For each red an Anti kills *place in some sort of toggle system for anti's* she receives redeemable points. Add in that Reds can't kill reds, and Anti's can't kill Anti's, hence the toggle option *1 week wait*.
-Full Example, and inclusion of Flavor-
RoxxOr the murderer has had a fine week of murdering trammies who have come to get special items to craft. He has say...100points. He goes to buc's den *which has changed to Guards Controlled, but for reds rather than blues* and spends his 100 points to buy..
- Bow of Pwnage - Blue Slayer* 10%ssi,10%hci -10 All Skills -5 All Stats
*= Slayer VS. Blue Players
On the other hand our Anti goes to Britain to buy..
- Shield of ..... - Legacy Item* +15% Def Chance 5% All Resist +50HP +50Mana
*Only Permanent Good Characters May Equip This Item
Permanent? Yes a new introduction to the systems. After 1 month of being in one of the systems *good/evil,faction,Guild War* you are offered the option of being permanently bound to it. Ex. RoxxOr has pked for a month and decided to permanently bind himself to evil. He can now use "Legacy" items, is locked to the felluca facet Permanently, recieves no skill loss on resurrection, may recall to any point inside felluca.
How would it work with Factions? Lock them to the fel facet, and give them their own style of "legacy" items and a benefit. Such as a recall spell to their home town, ect.
Legacy Items - These should be very high end craftables, or Rewards based on points. They should have a HEAVY downside such as the being locked into combat with your side permanently and not allowed to leave the facet. The bonuses on the items should also be exceedingly high and flavorful. Make them unique to how they were earned. A faction thief gets a legacy item that gives a bonus like..skill ignore = use any skills while hidden and remain hidden 15charges, ect.
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Summary- UO is a game that has quite possibly the most versatile engine ever created. So why not focus on it? The game has obviously turned into item fest, so why not give everyone what they want. Tokuno itself wasn't that great, but the artifact quest was very popular. UO has always been the one MMO that gave it's all to the crafter and pvm/pvp. Combine the two. I tried to keep my idea fairly easy to work with *mostly it's based on already existing parts of uo* and open-ended for development,balancing.
So that's my idea, let me know what you think.
C&C welcome.
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