What I'd like to do with crafting, part 2: Stuff
(Caveat: same rules of commitment apply as with the first part of this article: this is my blog, these are not plans but ideas, and so on.)
As many people pointed out, it's not too cool to have your double slayer HCI SSI Sword of Everything that took you a year of Doom-trawling to get bust . . . unless it gets a lot easier to replace.
Well, what if it was?
Some people have suggested that we should port the Tokuno arti system (where your chances of getting one increase for each eligible creature you kill) to Doom and the paragon system. We will probably get to the paragon system in time, but I am actively planning to update Doom to work like this soon. This is going to put more artifact caliber loot into players' hands. There are some additional changes that are not yet on the menu, but I would like to do to loot in general:
- Remove generics on all but the lowest-end creatures. (Does the dark father really need to drop regs?).
- Drop fewer items, but ensure that those that do get dropped are of better quality.
- Make high-end creatures drop rare crafting materials. Speedman calls these "fragments" and for want of a better term, that's what I'll call them as well.
posted by MrTact @ 10:21 PM
49 comments
49 Comments:
Now you've stopped a lot of worry. As long as the higher end items are more readily available I think most people will enjoy this system
"Remove generics on all but the lowest-end creatures. (Does the dark father really need to drop regs?)."
I definitely agree. Maybe leave some items for 'atmosphere' like the body parts or some such thing, but in general no, high-end creatures shouldnt be the Britannian Garbage Company.
"Drop fewer items, but ensure that those that do get dropped are of better quality."
Highly agree with this idea.
"Make high-end creatures drop rare crafting materials. Speedman calls these "fragments" and for want of a better term, that's what I'll call them as well."
This is a VERY VERY neat crafting system you have devised here. I say run with it and see what happens.
"I am actively planning to update Doom to work like this soon. This is going to put more artifact caliber loot into players' hands."
My only real worry here is that artifacts will become TOO frequent in the game. If you were able to design a more random artifact system (where instead of the same 20 static artifacts, you had 30 that were dynamic) it would help a bit, I think.
One thing I like is when you see artifacts (minors) that can have a skill boost of +5 or +10, and of any combat skill. Id like to see something similar in artifacts.
For instance,
Ornament of the Magi
Instead of
20% LRC
10% LMC
2 FC
3 FCR
Energy Resist 15%
Youd have
18-20% LRC
8-10% LMC
1-2 FC
2-3 FCR
Random Resist 15%
Or, you could assign properties to groups, IE
Mage Group:
LMC, LRC, Mana Reg, Int+, Mana+, FC, FCR, SDI, Skills (eval-int, magery, med)
Warrior Group:
SSI, DI, HCI, DCI, Str+, Dex+
And come up with various 'groupings' for how you want to have your artifacts come out.
It could make it so that the Ornament spawns as
RandomMageProperty-100%
RandomMageProperty-125%
RandomMageProperty-200%
RandomMageProperty-100%
RandomResist-100%
So you could just as easily get
Magery+15
Evaluate Intelligence+19
SDI 30%
LRC 20%
Physical Resist 15%
as
LMC 8%
SDI 15%
LRC 40%
FC 1
Cold Resist 15%
It would keep the artifacts rare (since there would by many combinations) but still powerful and desirable ...
I really like the sound of that crafting system, I have suggested the identical thing on and off for the past two years, so I'm glad something akin it is at least in the minds of people working on the game, that gives me a fair deal of hope in regards to crafting.
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Mr. Tact,
These ideas are all tying together very nicely! Most of the people that object to the ideas about item decay do so based on the current state of the game and items. They do have a point; if nothing was done other than to make items decay faster, it would be pretty nasty.
However, they don’t seem to bother to read other ideas you post, or others post on the subject.
Incorporating the Tokuno-style artifact drop in Doom would make artifacts more attainable to everyone for spending time in the gauntlet.
Player Crafters being able to create items with more control over the properties added makes crafting more valuable, and artifact-caliber items even more attainable.
I really like the “fragments” resource idea a lot, but that idea brings up some issues:
Some people might argue that their crafter should be able to attain these new resources, and there is no way they will be able to do that. I would counter this argument with the idea that these fragments are very special, and very rare. Very skilled warriors/mages/etc. are needed to gather these resources.
Still, the resources would need to be pretty rare indeed; so we don’t end up with everyone running around with a blade of insanity..
What if we recycled the old, unused dungeons in to the mix? No only do the resources only spawn on high-end critters, but certain resources only spawn on high-end monsters in certain places? A lot of the dungeons are abandoned now; they are rarely visited. Say the Swing Speed Increase resource only spawns on Balrons and Daemons in Hyloth, Defense Chance Increase only off lich lords in Deceit. Etc. Also, like the other resources, their quantity would be doubled in Fel. And for the sake of resurrecting something great – make one highly desired property (DI?) only spawn in Khaldun! I think this would really resurrect the abandon dungeons of sosaria, and bring some excitement back to the game as people who want good items are most likely going to have to hunt for the resources themselves, and bring them to the crafter, or pay an arm and a leg for the item already made.
And of course, this would make that offline communications/mail system I talked about even more desirable as a warrior might want to send a piece of armor, or a weapon, along with some resources to a crafter friend to have it enhanced. I think that we really need a better system for player interaction with lots of variables (like the trade window enhancing ideas people have discussed, and the mail system, player made commodity deeds that I discussed).
I would like to add that kanid’s idea obove regarding a more dynamic set of values instead of the current static ones is also very very good, and would add more value to the artifacts, as well as trade.
Great stuff Mr. Tact! Keep bringing it!
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I like the fragments idea, and I like the idea of them being available in the older dungeons.
I'd also like to see some Tokuno style Marty drops in the dungeons, killing creatures in each level of the dungeons could give an item that would be useful against that level - shame lvl 1 giving an eathy slayer.
Why making monster drop better loot? I thought the idea was to help crafters. If we are to help them, monster have to stop droping better loot that we can craft.
The Fragment thing seem rather interesting tho. But still, the item decay is a big mistake.
Thinking that people will agree to drop their newly acquired tokuno or doom arti is laughable even if they become less rare. People dont want to have to go looking for armor and weapon all the time.
Dont you rememvber the Tokuno dye posts? People wanted to have theuir armor look great and logicly, they want it to last too. If it start to fall apart, the clown suit will be coming back and so will the anger of the people.
One suggestion that was made by someone in my guild, was to do those changes on a special shard. Let the people who want that go there and leave the rest of us alone.
The problem with crafting is very simple to solve. It is in the BOD reward system. NOT the timer delay. Give better reward for our effort instead of useless prospectors tool. Do just taht, and every crafter (beside Kanid) will be happy. And for the record, i do have crafters. Legendary smith, elder tailor, and soon gm fletcher. So it is not because i dont care about crafters. I just (like many of us who unfortunatly, dont write on Stratic or here), dont like the decay idea at all.
Just go in Tokuno and see how fast fan dancer go trhough your amor. 90 minutes and it gone. After two hours of hunting deathwatch, my Darkened sky (with 255 dur) was down to 4.. and so on. It just make so sense.
Sure it can plese one or 2 people.. but look at the insurance and bless issue. Why do we have them in tram if it is not because we want our staff to stay with us. Think about that.
I agree Rob, all dungeons! Each dungeon can have its own set of unique 'artifacts' of various chances of being recieved. It would make some lesser used dungeons better used again! Maybe even make it so that hunting in their Fel counterparts gives you a little chance-boost!
"Just go in Tokuno and see how fast fan dancer go trhough your amor. 90 minutes and it gone. After two hours of hunting deathwatch, my Darkened sky (with 255 dur) was down to 4.. and so on. It just make so sense."
I dont know what you are doing wrong, but that seems extreme. In the gauntlet, I have had my armor and equipment (usually at 64-100 durability) last 2-3 hours before it begins to reach breaking point.
"People dont want to have to go looking for armor and weapon all the time"
I still get a kick out of this. All the time? Who said you would have to look for it all the time? If its well designed, you shouldnt have to replace it but every 3-4 months.
"Why making monster drop better loot? I thought the idea was to help crafters. If we are to help them, monster have to stop droping better loot that we can craft."
People will have two choices:
a.) Go hunt for what you want
b.) Buy what you want from crafters or merchants
right now, b.) only includes merchants since crafters (the majority of them) cant make anything people want. Crafters would nicely compete with merchants and item-hunters if they could make things people wanted, regardless of how good or frequent the loot was.
"Sure it can plese one or 2 people.. but look at the insurance and bless issue. Why do we have them in tram if it is not because we want our staff to stay with us. Think about that."
Insurance and blessing werent created so you could 'keep' your items from breaking. They were designed to keep you from losing them to other players or thieving monsters. Blessed items broke even when items normally 'broke'.
I think the biggest problem is that people dont want UO to be a game, they just want it to be a place to blow-off steam! Instead of a virtual world they want a medieval counterstrike.
I was a bit worried after reading the first crafting post but the second part of the idea has me feeling much better about everything.
I do not like the idea of having great items break mainly due to the large amount of time needed to acquire those items. It should still take good effort to acquire good items, however, if those items are attainable in a reasonable amount of time it takes the sting out of item breakage if you can achieve a similar quality item during game play.
I for a while have thought special resources crafters could use to add properties to items would be excellent. Having it as high end monster loot is a good idea. Perhaps also having a small percentage of an item being able to be collected during resource gathering might be a good idea as well to help miners and lumberjackers like a 1 in 1000 or even 10000 chance of pulling a special resource.
The combination of items breaking more often, and crafters getting special resources to craft specific items seems to be a lot of what crafting needs to increase the desire of players for craftable items. An update to the BOD system would round that out fully.
The BOD system change of allowign more bods when you turn one in is a good idea. I suggest changing rewards in and out of the system for the decorative rewards. Once polar bear rugs and tapestries were out for a year most poele had what tehy wanted. Change the decorative rewards like once a year. Perhaps add a high end or medium reward that would ensure one or two free repairs on use.
Having artifact style items being easier to acquire, as well as resources necessary to get special items crafted I beleive would make it tolerable for most players, and possibly increase the fun of pvm for those who like to collect good items.
Now get pbds on siege so everyone can use at least one good item and I would be happy. ;)
Kanid : What i am doing wrong?
You are comparing Doom gauntlet with Tokuno. Monsters there do crushing damage. Therefore they all destroy your armor and for some reasons your eweapins in no tie. havent you never been there? Obviously...
Speaking of obvious.. You really dont have any idea why people are insuring there stuff in tram. Stop saying it is not meant to protect the item. The players use it for that UNIQUE reason. Why would they use it otherwise?
Can you just stop thinking about only yourself and start looking around you. Maybe you dont care about your stuff, but the average player who dont have much time to play, do care and surely, they dont want to see their stuff go up in smock just to please a minority of players like you.
I like the cut of your jib.
I'd prefer to take the Tokuno-style and disperse it into other dungeons than just Doom.
Doom currently has it's artifacts. Illshenar has it's artifacts. The Felucca dungeons have scrolls, the Trammel dungeons have......
The nice thing about the Tokuna artifacts is that you could hunt anywhere there that you wanted and have a chance at one.
"havent you never been there? Obviously..."
Mostly on my mage :-) But occasionally on my fencer against fan-dancers, and even he has only a little trouble.
"Speaking of obvious.. You really dont have any idea why people are insuring there stuff in tram."
I think people insure their stuff so it doesnt get stolen. Simple as that. Anyone who insures their items so they dont break, doesnt understand how insurance works. You do understand items DO currently break in UO right? Unless people drop POF on them constantly.
"Maybe you dont care about your stuff, but the average player who dont have much time to play, do care and surely, they dont want to see their stuff go up in smock just to please a minority of players like you."
First off, I dont know that 'players like me' are the minority or not, I think assuming so if definitely narrow minded.
Secondly, I think many players wont care if their stuff goes up in 'smock' if they can easily go buy some replacements cheaply. Other games besides UO pull this off just fine, and people stil have fun, so assuming that people wouldnt enjoy UO simply because their stuff breaks is to ignore the fact that items break in WoW, EQ, Lineage, etc.
The reality is that you dont want your items to break because you have some sort of mental block that has made you become emotionally attached to pixels on a screen, maybe because you spent money on it, or maybe because you spent too much time to get it. But let it go. You will get more items. :-)
Though it is not his original idea, Noni discussed once what it would be like to "put together" the ultimate weapon with "pieces" or as Tact refers to them "fragments" found throughout sosaria.
I'm not every crafter, but as one crafter, this is my dream. It adds such a wonderful element of ROLEPLAY to it. Crafting the "Mace of the sky" with 2 parts Orc Tongue, 1 part Dragon tooth, etc. etc." will seem like a quest for my smith.
Of course these items have to have VALUE to do make the system truly work. Let's not forget this ESSENTIAL part of the equation.
I know this blog is just concepts in thought without any real development in game.
However --
From someone who hastily bashed on the stratics boards last week for the lack of crafter changes (that is not QUITE an apology :) ) -- if you somehow incorporate this type of crafting system in the game and have it valueable -- my God, you will own me til the day they shut UO's doors.
Please Mr. Tact don't take away useful low-end loot on monsters. Many a time those extra regs on the DF or bandies on mummies or other high end monsters are just enough to keep you in the game and not make you leave Doom or give up the hunt.
Lots of people may want only uber-items to spawn on monsters, but including low end items makes finding something special even better. It's not given to you, you have to compete to open a corpse and hope what you grabbed from the corpse before others is worth keeping. (Sure, I know there are instanced corpses but it just is better to fight in party at DF and places for working in teams cross healing etc..)
I think this game needs to make up its mind if it is community oriented or not to solve issues such as the proposed crafting changes. Are you going to host events such as the Tokuno minor arty spawn where people are rewarded with individual fame caused us all to raise arms against each other as we bicker, fight for spots, and go after arties. Or are you going to make us band together as a community to free Britain from the generals?
This flows through to every aspect of the game. Items breaking and fragment gathering seem to focus on the interdependence of a community, crafters to recieve supplies from warriors and warriors to recieve goods from crafters.
I would like to see a goal set out by UO, so players know where things are heading and developers can check ideas against an ultimate plan. So when asking whether something should be implimented, you developers ask yourselves, "does this add to the spirit of community in game or does this detract from it?".
Right now there seems to be little focus, and thus players demmand changes in every which direction. While one thing I love about UO is that it can be many things to many people, and we're never all going to agree, it's important that the game itself have a cohesive structure.
So please, leave regs and bandies on high end monsters. And make a decision if this is primarily a community-oriented game or an individuals game so people understand why changes are being made and the new changes are better focused towards the needs of the players.
Maybe add some fragments into the bod systems too! So crafters have a way to get some without fighting. Maybe have some you can only get on creatures then have some that can you can only get thur the bod systems. We all know the bod systems need something.
Also maybe add some fragments into the plant system! That could use something new to it too!
Fragments shouldn't just be loot off creatures!
Well... i guess i overestimated the reach of this proposed change after reading the first part. I had hoped this was going to lead into an eventual removal of artifacts, and a return to days when crafters were a valued template.
It doesnt appear that this is going to happen, but i'm not too worried. The system youve devised really is pretty clever, and im sure it will work well. However, as an earlier person commented, you're at a bit of a fork in the road here. It's been said so much it's becoming cliche', but UO as it currently exists is just a game. It's no different than Counterstrike, Flight Simulator, or The Sims. By that i mean it's merely competetive entertainment. Get the best stuff, own the biggest house, horde the most artifacts. Further, its now quite possible to play the game entirely on your own, without any interaction with other players. This is due in part to the ease of skill gain and the number of characters that can be created on each account, but thats a discussion for another time. The other half of the problem lies with the direction the game has taken - and crafting in particular.
The only reward for a current smith is the BOD lottery. Before BOD's and before AoS, the only reward was the admiration and respect of your peers - peers who respected you because your armor was the best available beyond the odd piece of invuln armor. As silly as that sounds, thats how it really was. UO then was a world - not just a game. It had its game side to it, with monster bashing and gold collecting... but it also had a truely immersive feel to it, as you got to know people not simply because they were decorated in artifacts, but because you began to rely on them (and they on you) to make it in the world. When you logged on to UO, you could honestly say that you were returing to a place you had fond memories of. You could see the game as a true community - a direct result of the interdependence characters had on each other. As it now stands, you log on and take your choice of which pre-planned, monotonous arty train to get on and go whore some artifacts for a while. Sure, you know people in game - but do you really need them? Are they people who youve hunted with? People who youve come to rely on? Would your gameplay really be that much different if they left tomorrow?
UO has become a glorified chat room. These proposed changes are excellent, but i believe a long term direction must be set. One that decides whether UO will continue placing an importance on individual gain and personal competition, or return to a game which instead promotes a true virtual community, where the most hardcore players are not the ones with multiple BOD accounts, but the ones who hold a true vested interest in their virtual life.
Just tip-toeing along the line is unfair and will only aggravate players on both sides of the argument. On one hand i see these changes as a good thing, on the other i see that theyre merely a lesser form of evil.
Sorry for such a generic post, but i thought it should be mentioned.
This crafting idea can be a good one, but a couple of possible problems.
1. What is to prevent mule usage? If everyone can simply establish their own general-purpose crafter mule, then they just hunt, gather, and make what they want themselves. True crafters will have a limited market. There are ways to prevent this but I have not seen it mentioned in your blog.
2. What about the limited-time Tokuno major artifacts? Take the Rune Beetle Carapace for example. Changing Doom is great but it won't help with these limited-time major artifacts. Are you going to allow crafting to create items that exceed the normal caps for magic items? That is, can a crafter make something with mana regeneraton 3, LMC 15%, mana+10, mage armor, 100%lower requirements, and higher than normal resists all on the same item? If not, then basically you're saying there is no way to replace the unique Tokuno major artifacts once they wear out.
I've proposed something very similar to your/speedman's "fragment" concept in the past. So obviously I like it as an idea.
The implementation here is what could make it really fun. Perhaps a certain modifier only drops in Ilshenar on rotting corpses at night, under a waxing gibbous moon. Though of course you wouldn't be guaranteed a drop under those conditions, but the conditions would have to be met before the drop was possible.
Want ssi? Collect 200 daemon bone and 200 dead wood and feed them to a plague beast lord in a Fel swamp for a chance to carve a specially-coloured mutation core that can be used to enhance a weapon.
The possibilities here are practically endless.
I love the concept of focusing on under-used dungeons. If the dungeons were no recall *cough*astheyshouldbe*cough*, that would help avert non-stop farming of these resources. Spread 'em out over the facets, too. If people are able to hunt useful items (other than scrolls and hides) in Fel dungeons, then the zerging potential decreases. The bigger the landmass to cover, the thinner reds will be on the ground. Maybe people will stop hanging around Brit Gate with their hands in their pockets.
The loot changes seem nice, but relatively unnecessary. I already get tons of great loot when playing my tamer, and a fair percentage of it survives in the hands of my crafter. Within the last two or three weeks, I've produced three 140 luck meddable armor pieces from enhanced loot. That's just me enhancing loot from my own hunting and the hunting of a close friend. We each hunt maybe six hours a week.
In any case, your Tokunofication of the artifact system is very placatory, which a lot of folks seemed to need. So well done. That seems like it goes well with the rest of the ideas.
Bowyers/Fletchers? Don't have one myself, but they're hurtin'
Another thought on changing Doom. I, and I would guess most people, have been asking for a change like this for a long time. That is where Doom Artifacts can be gained more easily and equally using a point system similar to the Tokuno event. So this is great.
However, we need more. There are two reasons why a lot (not all) of people just don't do the gauntlet. You hit one of them with the rewards (the way artifacts are distributed). The second one, though, is FUN. Most people (not all) who do the gauntlet do it for the reward, not because its fun.
Running through and doing the same thing again and again with *tons* of people in just one location gets to be extremely boring and has absolutely no challenge. The only challenge is to stay awake and to make sure you do at least enough damage to qualify for looting and the reward (which is very easy to accomplish).
So, you're fixing one part of the problem: the reward. Please fix the second one. If you ask for feedback on how to, I and many others could offer you a wealth of suggestions. Thanks.
Can you get this change into publish 32? (I wish)
This is exactly the type of crafting overhaul that is needed.
If you put item decay in I will quit UO. K thx.
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Ok.. me agin...
I came with some idea (for a change)
1. About decay: I think a fair compromise. Leave existing item intact, but add the decay thing to all new stuff that spawn.
Doing so will leave old grumpy players like me happy as well as the others who feel decay is good.
2. Either way, you have to review the damge some monsters are doing on armor. Curently, no mather what you do, if you are melee, fan dancers and such, will go through your armor in 90 minutes. It is tested.
3. Please leave self repair work as it is now. But, make it rarer on loot and more common for crafters. The result would be a bigger demand for crafted stuff.
MrTact, while I appreciate your consideration for decay I really think this would hurt the game in a lot of ways. I love the suggestions for bonuses to crafting, the combination of hunting and crafting to work together with resources and special loot. What I don't like is the lifespan you suggest giving to items. I support a system that adds back in some decay on items. I believe one of the biggest problems that faces the economy in UO and the game in general is that there are far too many "open faucets" that have been pouring out the same items for years.
I think the problem with your solution is just that it's very aggressive. We feel the problem acutely now becaue so much of this stuff has been pumped into the game and never lost.
I would love to see a system that valued the effort it takes to get this stuff, introduces some random chance or degredation over time but that is more tempered.
I don't think the right answer is to introduce a lot more of these things and make everything fall apart a lot more easily. Why not just introduce some rare breakage or a max repair concept like you propose but let people keep their stuff for 100 repairs instead of 10...
That changed combined w/ a boost in the drop of artifacts would be a lot more player friendly in my opinion. I'm part of the minority that has worked hard in a variety of ways to put together a crazy artifact suit... I want it to last not because of how much I've sunk into it but because I've worked so hard to do it. If I knew a suit had a fixed lifetime of 10 repairs I'd be a LOT less likely to even try to build a good one which hurts crafters and hunters alike.
I would love to see doom switched over to a system like what's dropping the tomarties but plz plz plz turn it way down. The problem w/ the current doom drop is that some individuals can fight for weeks and never get a single artifact... Even a casual farmer can get 10-15 tomarties in a day.... it shouldn't be that easy to get a major doom artifact.... it would be great to have a system that not only rewarded people after a certain amount of work but also rate-limited people from farming more than 2-3 times that amount in a reasonable period of time.
I'm really glad you opened up this blog Tact, it's good to hear your ideas and it's great to hear that you're spending so much consideration on great new possibilities.
Mr. Tact and others:
The one thing I do miss is the moon phases. I think this should be tied in to crafting in the following way:
Make the "fragments" not only difficult to get, but make them spawn only in dungeons. For example, fragment A is only available in Destard at the Shadow Wyrm area or Ancient Wyrm area, and you only have a 1 in 10000 chance of digging it up with a GM Miner (maybe a mining powerscroll...). Regular mining above surface acts as it does now, but forcing the mining of things below the surface will also led to better community involvement (which has been lacking since AOS and the death of the Brit Forge), in the sense that most mules can't survive in dungeons by themselves.
Next, make the actual crafting/enhancing dependent on moon phases as well. So, with both moons full, and fragment A you have a chance (based on smithing/tailoring) to create item B, but with any other phase item B cannot be created, and uses the fragment anyway. This will make the creation of these items much more difficult, and will take the player base a little longer to figure out the rules behind the crafting.
Also, I agree with the idea of moving ALL artifacts to the Tokuno style, but I think the posters who have spoken to randomness have a point also.
If you want crafting to take a big part in the game as it once did, then anything that spawns on a monster should be less potent than what a player crafter can make. Start by cutting all current weapon modifiers on everything (including artifacts) to 1/3 of what they currently are. For all armour, halve everything (LMC, LRC, resists, everything). Then make players work together to create things. Inscription, Alchemy, Mining, Carpentry, Musicianship, Smithing, Tailoring, etc. can all play a part in the crafting cycle. Lumberjacking for rare woods can also be introduced.
Also, we need the risk vs. reward again on all facets. Drop item insurance. Please. As long as there is minimal (or no) chance to lose something, any crafting changes are going to be half-assed at best. This will also have the effect of putting PvP back to a more level playing field, as people will not be running around artie'd out if they are going to lose them on death. Remember when PvP used to be GM armour and a GM poisoned kryss? And mages actually had to carry regs?
So, to sum up:
1) Dump item insurance.
2) Drop Artie modifiers to 1/3 of current for weapons, and 1/2 of current for armour.
3) Put the "fragments" in a very difficult place to gather, with a low frequency. Do not tell the player base where each spawns - maybe have them spawn only in one area of a heavily guarded dungeon, but make it difficult for people to go solo for gathering "fragments".
4) Tie crafting in with the moon phases. This yields more options, as different moon phases could produce different results, or even differing intensities. Could even tie in location here (shrines, altars in dungeons, specific islands, etc.)
5) Move all artifacts to the Tokuno system. Minors can be dropped randomly based on number of kills, and can be turned in for majors. Majors should only be at most 1/2 of what a player crafted item can be. Majors could also spawn randomly in chests. Also, make the curator (the person to whom you turn minor artifacts in to to to get majors) use something like a BOD system where you are given a set of minor arties to find to get a specific major. Either you turn in those minors, or else you have to wait until he has another "order" to fill.
6) Make all fragments "cursed", and stealable anywhere. Thieves need a bone thrown their way too. I realize that someone is gonna jump down my throat for this one, but too bad. Thieves are a play-style that has been seriously neglected. Maybe even have some fragments spawn on vendors/NPCs very, very rarely, and allow thieving to try to take them (more of a hunting concept for the thieves)
7) Dump (or at least lessen/change) the effect that runics have on the game. Possibly include runics in the crafting in the sense that you require 7 of fragment A, along with a shadow runic hammer during a specific moon phase.
What it really comes down to is that since the game has become item based, then make it so that only crafters can produce items that are most desirable. Each one can be unique, and players will respect items much more if they can lose them (no insurance, breakage, etc). This aids in levelling out PvP, gives the crafters a chance at actually being a crafter again, and most of all leads the player base to a greater sense of community.
-iron
I knew i forgot something...
4. Archers : Before you do anything in crafting in general, make sure bower/fletchers are upgraded so then can craft magical bow and such. Otherwise, decay will have a terrible impact on archery.
Danger Power : You speak exactly what im thinking, but in clearer words. Tks
I love these ideas. I see them as the first step to getting UO back to how it used to be.
How to fix UO in 6 simple steps (MrTact has thought up steps one and two already)
Step 1: Make items decay again
Step 2: Make items easier to get (Involve crafting and player interaction heavily in this aspect)
Step 3: Tone down the items gradually. Don't actually tone down the properties of the items, as this would cause upset, but make weapons overall do less damage, and armour give less protection. People should NOT be able to solo every creature in the game.
Step 4: Remove insurance
Step 5: Er..
Step 6: That's it.
Honestly, I'd like to see less towards the 'drudgery' aspect of playing. Rather than making permanent objects consumeable, why not make more useful consumeables? Rather than making normal armor constantly decay, why not allow crafters to give certain new properties? I'm rather short on imagination unfortunately, but perhaps allow them to add on extra mods (temporarily)? Perhaps allow them to make armor that will decay (IE that cannot have powder of fortification used on it) but that has 1-2 extra properties (or allow them to 'overlap' properties, so that it would be possible to get non-artifact armor with 40% lrc, but fewer other properties). Perhaps allow players to 'cannibalize' their old armor, garnering, say, 1 1/2 strength property to a new piece? With all the caps already in place (and possibly one or two more -- hp inc and stamina inc) this would both encourage a market for new equipment and enable those with... "lesser equipment" to compete more effectively (although I am of the opinion that there is already fairly good competition; well done).
Obviously, if players have no choice whatsoever, they will 'suck it up' and wear their soon-to-decay armor... however, from what I can discern, the majority of the population (not the vocal minority that feels that such a thing is a primary issue) does not want their hard-won (and highly-prized) equipment to fall apart. Due to the choice (IE, change the game to add in item decay or leave it alone), this idea will most likely be overlooked by one of the two sides; the side that feels nothing needs to be changed.
If the objective is to have a flux of items, then it would be a good idea. We don't want to get to the point where everyone has the most uber of items that never need to be replaced; this is a path of madness.
With all the localization changes, the names of items (vanquishing, etc.) were removed for numbers. This is great - I love numbers. But, there are many other systems that are too mysterious, IMO. One of these is enhancing. Even though it would blow up my crafter char, could one of the less used skills be modified to allow a crafter to determine the chances of success while enhancing an item? [I was thinking of arms lore.]
Unlike you Hemisphere I'm not anxious to go back to any UO of yesteryear. I really like UO now better than any other time. I don't miss leaving my best equipment locked down or in a bank instead of taking it on my adventures.
I touched on this point a bit in my last comment but lemme expand an analogy out on the proposed solution:
If the lack of decay concentrates too much good stuff in game with too little risk of loss there are several solutions.
If we think of the UO world as a sink currently there's a faucet running a steady stream of really good items in game (and the drain plug is in the drain). The outflux of those items is limited to insurance bugs, insurance accidents, freak events. So we have a lot coming in and hardly any going out (essentially a tiny trickle out of the drain).
Tact proposes: Turn the sink up and pull the plug on the drain. You can certainly match the same rate or increase it if you want but balancing the system in this state is WAY trickier than either of the other extremes.
Why not go with a system that's much closer to what we currently have but with some added outflux of items. I've said t before. I don't like the idea of a fixed 10 repair lifetime. People like to work hard to put together a great or highly customized suits. Crafters goods have value not only if they're high quality but if they last and can be counted on. I like the idea of tieing decay to repairs because it allows for suits that are worn but not "used" to last far longer. Rather than a cap on the number of repairs I would like to see something like a "drastic repair error" introduced. This could happen on any sort of repair, from a deed, trade window or kit. The drastic event would reduce the max HP that that piece could have by say 10% of it's total and that maximum could never be exceeded with temp powder. The incidence of this should be kept rare so that it's a necessary evil but not a death sentence to every piece of armor in your collection. By reducing a piece of armor by 10% each time you wittle away at it and cause its life to be drawn out and slowly degrading... from say 200 hp -> 180 -> 162 -> 146 -> 132 -> 119 -> 108 -> 98 -> 89 -> 81 -> 73 -> 66 -> 60 -> 54 -> 49 -> 44 -> 40 -> .... this simulates a slow death to the wearing out of a piece of armor... it's cool!
There are better solutions to the problems that face the equipment than to just attempt a radical overhaul on how much is influxed and how much is lost. How many times in the past have we seen problems where drops weren't as expected and a system just dumps lots more out than expected or allowed to run out of control for a long time?
Some reasonable decay and some added control on the drops for consistancy and rate limiting accomplish way more than just saturating the market and making things easily lost as a throw back to days in UO when nobody could walk around with good stuff for fear of losing it.
You know MrTact... my confidence is boosting by the hour in regards to the future of UO...
At least [like others have said] now we KNOW that there is at least some consideration in the minds of the devs [two at least... I love you speedman LoL] for the problems facing crafting... and the community life of UO.
Actually, I love the idea that despair proposes about temporarily enhancing an item. This would fit in with my lunar phase idea in that a weapon could be enhanced to be an undead slayer for one lunar phase, and then revert back to it's previous state.
I also forgot bowcraft (slaps own hand), but this definitely needs to be addressed at the same time.
The one thing that I probably didn't justify enough is my stance on artifacts. A definition of artifact:
An object produced or shaped by human craft, especially a tool, weapon, or ornament of archaeological or historical interest
If you think of artifacts, you think of something delicate with historical significance, possibly with magical properties (in the context of the game). So in reality, an artifact should not really be that repairable.
No-one would think of repairing the Shroud of Turin, or the Holy Grail, or certain artwork, but rather collect and display. You could have certain artifacts that had special properties, but it would be unrepairable (think of an ancient katana - you could use it, but it is worth less damaged, and is essentially not reparable).
If people want functional items (everyday use), you create them, or buy them from someone who does. Again to throw the historical aspect in, something that is crafted by recent technology (generally speaking) will out-perform something created ages ago.
I really believe that the higher end items should be craftables, and not the artifacts. If the artifacts are "high-end" they certainly should not be repairable. This also keeps rare-collectors and pixel-crack addicts happy, as artifacts are exactly that: collectables.
After reading some of the posts on Stratics, there is one thing that alot of people are forgetting: the second M in MMORPG - multiplayer. There should be a community, and there currently isn't, or rather the one that exists is fairly negligible. Interaction through crafting is one way to get things back on the right track, as well as having the need for multiple players to work together to generate the higher-end items.
One other thing that just jumped to mind is the following concept: If you are a crafter, and you make something, then you make it to the best of your ability. Now, someone else may look at it and say "I can improve on this" and does so. This really allows for interesting interactions, as one player might craft something that has 20 LRC for example, but cannot enhance the item any further. Another player however, may be able to enhance the item in some fashion. So, as items start to pass throught the community they can get to be more powerful (to a point), but at some point someone will get the item and say "This is exactly what I was looking for! I'll keep it" and take the item out of circulation, until it breaks.
As long as the artifacts continue to overpower crafted items, and as long as there are items that don't wear out then there are going to be the players who have the mentality that they have "won" UO - they have all the most powerful things and are uber-players. The fact is that nothing in life lasts forever, and I think that needs to be properly reflected back in the game.
-iron
Let me just say that as a takeaway line, I think the way to make crafters more successful is to make it slightly (but not a lot) easier for them to churn out really good stuff. Some variation of your 'fragment' idea takes care of that.
Players who have a mule are still likely to buy high end armor and weapons from a real crafter, for example barbed kit armor in the current system. So the goal should be to make the creation of this armor possible for a real crafter beyond an ebay-seller but out of the reach of a primarily adventuring player who just happens to have a mule.
As a result, I still have a fundamental problem with the aggressive destruction of player items that makes up the other half of your plan. You have two basic
options available to you in such a system.
1) Make high end items very easy to come by to make up for the fact that you need to replace everything once a month
2) Bring the average equipment level of all players down.
Under option 1, which seems to be the choice, there is no such thing as a "very high end" item anymore,
as stuff that is easy (in a UO powergamer sense) to come by will be used by players through their mule characters to make the items themselves. And they will do so angrily, because they can't play the game, but instead have to go through the demoralizing task of "serving a term of punishment" to collect the components to rebuild what they already have, and resume doing what they want to do, which is play the game and enjoy events and activities with friends.
Under option 2, you have everyone going around in what amounts to some analog of GM "beater" armor, that is trivially made by their mule characters, and again, crafters are not served, and people are unhappy that their performance is worse than it was 2 months ago (nobody likes to make "negative progress" in a game.
I think the best way to help crafters with a system as you describe is to make these "fragments" attainable at about the rate of tokuno minor artifacts, and count towards maybe a 10% intensity boost on some arbitrary property (depending on your game mechanics), and require x charges from some kind of runic hammer/kit to assemble. (X being smaller for greater crafting skill and higher level hammer/kit).
You don't need to destroy people's items at the ridiculous rate of total turnover every 2 months to get people to try to upgrade. You're going to get some REALLY nice items this way and people will want them. Optionally. They won't be strongarmed (which sociologically no one likes.)
If after all of this, a REAL crafter (not a mule) still can't make a living, then I think it should be on the table to maybe destroy items at a more reasonable rate of every 6-12 months. But only if necessary. It takes an incredible emotional and time investment in today's UO to put together the suit you want with the right colors and the right properties and the right resists, and I don't think you should be so hasty to demoralize people by making that accomplishment.. well, not.
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I'm not a big fan of the repair idea, but this new crafting idea i've been pushing for a while. It allows better items, less throw away craftables, and we can customise what we want better. I like this idea. Hopefully there will be different levels of fragments. I hope some of these fragments might make it into the BOD system to allow crafters to obtain, or hey, even some mini-quests with random loot at the end?
I love the idea about dropping less items on corpses, i would rather see only gold in the corpse then 5 really crap items.
I love the Toko system, but i hope in the future it becomes harder to get the miniarties, they seemed a little bit too easy this time around.
Please don't make UO easier by taking away items while at the same time making it easier for them to be received.
There is nothing wrong with having an item of limited durability in the game because it forces players to make choices in what they do. This is the way it used to be - only back in the day, player crafters had an opportunity to replace the items.
The problem with the fragments is that you have to have a PvM combat character to get them or you have to pay a significant amount to get the ones that matter. This not only impacts those dasterdly PvP types, it also hurts the crafter themselves.
The idea does have merit, but the implementation needs to be thought out more so. Perhaps in addition to finding these things on critters, crafters could under go some kind of hunt/quest for them (avoiding the ability to farm them like BODs). Having crafter seek these items out or be able to craft the properties themselves would be within the UO fiction. Perhaps through lumberjacking or mining, or some kind of tailor related resource gathering players can kind 'exceptional' quality resources ideal for certain kinds of mods. The time/ability/quality required for these items should be comparable to what a combat character would be able to get in a given time frame - plus some extra time for the reduced risk. This action will encourage commerce between fighters and crafters again. As an added 'spice' make these fragments with a decay of a given time frame.
On another note in the same topic...
The purpose of calling something an 'artifiact' is because it is supposed to be rare. A major arty should be even rarer - with less than 1% in existance per shard. This gives players a choice between using it and giving them a significant advantage in battle for a short period of time (based on durability) or to collect it - a win/win for those who fight and those like shiny things.
PvP has long been criticized as being uber powered with a loss of tactics. Items losing damage/durability every time they are used levels the playing field.
It is a seemingly simple solution...
1. Allow items to have durability and lose damge/effectiveness over time through use/combat
2. Limit the number of uber weapons/armour entering the game
3. Over time player crafted/enhanced weapons and armour become popular again
4. Adjust max hit points and damage critters have or can do to accomodate 'lesser quality' armour and weapons (do this in 3-4 months after the change to bleed of the 'uber' stuff).
Result:
- PvM and PvP play styles adjust to more pre-AOS levels
- Player crafting becomes usefull again (except the furniture decay thing that still needs fixed)
- Newer players have a less difficult time competing with the more seasoned vets (better subscription retention)
- The game becomes less item based
Potential problems...
Vets will complain though they have the PBD, +20 stats and ethy steeds
-sigh
Sig Rant Follows:
-Make jewelry w/ durability
-Destroy furniture the third time it's axed
-Scale insurance to items
-Create NPC gambling
-Require chars to eat
-Make Smithing profitable
-Make UO "M" rated again!
Mr.Tact,
First, I must thank you for opening this discussion. It is very encouraging to say the least. After so many changes being made to UO in the last few years without any player feedback beforehand, I am so happy to see what you are doing.
I have played UO since Oct '97, on Atlantic until I started as a smith on Siege its very first day (then again on its second first day). I remember well the fine sense of community that sparked next to the Delucia Forge in those early days.
And I remember fondly the first small shop I had by the Yew gate, where people stopped by to purchase the standard weapons and armor I stocked several times daily on my vendors.
I remember that I felt a responsibility to the citizens of Yew to keep them well armed! So I got up early every morning and stocked. I stopped working during my day- every day, and stocked, and before I logged each night- I stocked. I never made a lot of money doing that on Siege, but I earned the thanks and respect of my customers. And I felt the community grow.
I remember the excitement some players had in finding me in my shop so they could get a special order made, or have me repair items for them. And I made more friends.
I also remember how I worked hard at making sure every customer could trust me. And when one would trust me enough to hand me their most prized weapons for repair, I was honored. And those that trusted me, I could trust, and the community started to become more of a family.
For a while, I thought AoS took all that away from me. I suddenly found that I could no longer make anything for my customers. I spent my time messing around with houses a while. I started my mornings with gardening. I made some furniture (I still can't explain why I plainly hate carpentry, but loved smithing- I only got carpentry so I could put my archer suits in the little wooden boxes with my name on it, hehe) to stock my vendors. I felt lost. And my point here is that for all of you who think that if your precious arties might someday go poof due to decay and that will make you quit, remember that with AoS, a league of smiths lost their whole purpose in playing, and saw their communities fall apart.
But some of us stayed, and we are here now hoping for a change. In the meantime, I have learned some new things to do. I began hunting in groups, doing champs. I still spend lots of time with other players- you can build community by just saying "hi" to someone at the bank. I have learned I don't have to be smith to make new friends. And I hate to think that so many of you think the only hope for community is in crafting changes, because the community is there, no matter what your profession. You just have to reach out.
But I would like to make things that people want and need again! But I have a couple of concerns with what I have read here so far.
First, I just think it sad that we need to have our repairs and enhancements done in a trade window. I am sorry, but earning the trust and respect of your community is the most glorious part of being a smith. If you do away with needing to trust each other, I wonder if you can really build friendships and true community.
Item decay? I don't know that it will make that much difference on Siege, to tell the truth. And to let a little secret out, I made my crafter a hider/stealther, not so she could stock her vendors safely, but so she could get to the bank without being stopped and asked to repair something everytime she turned around. Sometimes I would just feel bogged down with an entire evening of repairing peoples' stuff. But if you other crafters want to repair, I see no harm in it.
The fragment idea is great! That may be the answer to get the smiths back in business. But please, rethink the idea to have these only obtainable by those who can go to the most dangerous places, and kill the high end monsters. Having only one place to get a much desired fragment would create a place for pks, thieves and griefers.
I think a better idea, would be to put them on a "point system" much like the Tokuno treasures, assigning each type of fragment to monster class (undead, for example), or to monsters with a particular type of resist. That way, anyone could get a fragment once they have killed enough monsters in the corresponding class or resist group. This would spread the hunting out all over the shard, and not concentrate it into small areas. I think it would be great if even the newest of characters had a chance at these fragments as long as they were willing to kill enough low end monsters to earn one.
T:
White text on a black background looks cool but is very hard on the eyes. Can you tone it up a bit?
I like the "fragments" idea but please please please remember BOWYERS when you make these changes hmm? pretty please?
I really like your ideas on this one. They sound pretty damn cool. I also like the variations that kanid and jonmcb proposed. Those are really cool too.
I know this is a personal blog, and not reflective of your working environment; but damn, knowing one of you is thinking about stuff like and vollying it around with the playerbase renews a lot of lost hope I had for the game.
I am definately in favour of a resource based crafting change that allows us to craft specific items.
This is exactly what we will need in order to be able to properly replace the items players have specifically sought and then lost due to the upcoming item decay.
Now as for fragments, all i really have to say is that they should not be found exclusively on monsters. Someone said put them in the BOD system as well, and that is not a bad idea for a few of them (it allows the constant change of BOD rewards which is a definate bonus).
I'd also suggest something along the lines of having them spawn randomly throughout Ilshenar. Not on monsters, but just on the ground, like exploding mushrooms or something. Use Ilshenar because it needs a bit more lovin'! Then we would have a bunch of players running hell for leather throughout Ilshenar, trying to stay alive and spot a fragment drop at the same time. Would be kinda fun!
Also, maybe have a 0.1% chance of an ore spawn turning into a new ore type that is part of the fragment system.
My general point here is that you shouldn't restrict these fragments to a single playstyle - ie combat characters. Allow crafters, fisherman, beggars (hahaha, have one type that randomly spawns as a successful begging reward - that'd be awesome!!!!!!!!) all different characters and playstyles have the chance to participate in the fragment economy!
One thing I thought about if this fragment/recipe thing does come to UO, is that when a weapon or armor piece does break, perhaps instead of dissapearing completely, it would leave behind some of the fragments needed to re-craft the same item. One variation on this might be that these fragments would be held in a special "container" like a "broken sword" or "shattered helmet" which would also serve as a template for recreating the item.
Using these remaining pieces, and adding some additional fragments, a crafter could attempt to recreate your favorite weapon or armor piece. If the "broken sword" container idea were used, perhaps there would be a limited number of attemps allowed before the container/template would become unusable or perhaps its properties would lose intensity with each attempt.
If the fragments did drop seperately into one's pack on item destruction, I guess there is the problem of people breaking stuff on purpose to get certain harder-to-get-otherwise fragments ...
As many have said, i'd like to see 'fragments' obtainable in a number and variety of ways, not just PvM.
For instance, mining, and with a small percentage chance you "uncover" something special like a fragment such as a "magical glowing gem"
Or while Lumberjacking (we really need different wood types) you can have an item uncovered in a hollow tree or something...?
Also, maybe while crafting you could "accidentally" make something that is in effect a fragment.
On a crafting fail you could have a 0.01% (or whatever) chance of that failed attempt resulting in a fragment being created.
A chef trying to craft a cake could make a "viscous glowing batter" which could be used in an array of applications to craft specific magical properties. (maybe Item ID could tell you what the fragment actually does?)
Or an alchemist could 'accidentally' craft a "strange glowing potion" which again could have magical properties.
on an aside, could any fragments please please be stackable. I still hate dealing with tribal berries, arcane gems, granite and sand amongst other items.
I would just like to remind you that crafters are a playstyle, not just a mule for fighters. Those that support restricting fragments to high end enemies are usually the same that refer to their crafters as mules and since they don't seem to see crafting as a worthy stand-alone playstyle, I would venture to say that they do not always have crafting's best interest at heart.
From most of what I've read on this whole subject so far, this is not so much for crafters as a new perk(new rewards, new income source) for fighters.
That said, this could be changed to better include crafters by listening to the comments(am just highlighting some key phrases but agree with pretty much all said) by:
savior_on_gl; "crafters could under go some kind of hunt/quest for them"
Pyrite;"I think it would be great if even the newest of characters had a chance at these fragments as long as they were willing to kill enough low end monsters to earn one."
Mijac Ch'mon; "Someone said put them in the BOD system as well, and that is not a bad idea for a few of them (it allows the constant change of BOD rewards which is a definate bonus)."
Feenicks; "As many have said, i'd like to see 'fragments' obtainable in a number and variety of ways, not just PvM.", "could any fragments please please be stackable".
The numerous points are well-taken . . . however, you're overlooking one thing. For a true economy to exist, all parties have to be both consumers and producers. That means that not only do crafters have to provide stuff adventurers want, the opposite is also true.
Yes Mr.Tact, but what you seem to be forgetting in your economic vision, is that crafters have already been nerfed by the craftable monster loot ever since AoS.
Remove or restrict craftable loot on monsters first, then perhaps fighters will have a reason to need crafters once again.
As things currently stand, fighters not only make gold by simply playing their preferred playstyle(I don't see crafters able to do that, do you?), but they also collect power and stat scrolls, gems, reagents, artifacts, and all the equipment that they used to purchase off crafters. Plus now you've given them the very ingredients that crafters need to make the only equipment that they would be interested in too! So in reality, fighters do have lots of things that crafters want/need, they did not need to get a corner on the rare ingredients too.
Please answer this, just where is a crafter supposed to come up with the gold or any other item that a fighter might be willing to trade the rare ingredients, let alone any artifacts or scrolls for? Runic kits are the only thing worth anything anymore, and they're only useful to other crafters.
Please don't use the old argument that they will offer them in return for the crafter's services to make the recipes, we all know that is a non-starter because very few fighters don't already have a mule capable of putting together said recipes, especially now with the help of the talisman's.
So just where in your equation do you see fighters still needing crafters as more than just enhancers or as a mule they load up for two minutes one in a blue moon to put together the ingredients that their fighter has collected?
Crafters do not want to sit in Heartwood pounding out the same junk over and over with little if any reward(certainly no special ingredients, gold, artifacts, gems, reagents, stat scrolls, etc for them eh?) for a rare chance to get a runic for a rare recipe they cannot even make because fighters are in control of the ingredients crafters need to use the runics.
Until fighters need crafters again, like crafters have always needed fighters, for customers let alone to assist in resource gathering, this whole strategy is flawed. This has certainly become more and more obvious with each passing day since MLs release.
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